What to do when police refuse to help

[hawgrider]

[juskom95]

Actually I'd be willing to bet that FZy didn't tell the cops responding that he'd lunged towards the guy that had just drawn a knife but was not making any threatening moves toward him.

So following someone to their home and drawing a deadly weapon is in no way a threat? Interesting. What would you do as an officer if someone followed you from a traffic stop, to your home and drew a knife on you? Talk nicely?

As for defending one's self, we'd all better understand that if we're the ones to begin a confrontation (like fzy confronting the biker) and don't do anything major to deescalate the situation then we have a much harder time proving self defense in a case of a loud mouth with a knife in his hands standing at the end of one's driveway when instead of simply drawing one of our own and standing our ground and take the fight to loud mouth.

Telling someone to slow down is not the same as saying "I'm going to beat your ass!" You know the difference, you're just tyring to push the whole "COPS ARE THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED TO USE FORCE," mindset like so many other officers.

And like I told sparky, I think the cops idea of locking all parties up and letting a judge sort it out makes a whole lot of sense.

He was just detaining the OP . . .

And as for My Ego getting it's azz up in the air, I'll bet the local PD's decision on who to arrest would be different based on Fzy's statement that he lunged as skippy #1 with his knife.

That's tanamount to an admission of guilt

I love how you're defending the aggressor here. Wonder why so many are losing trust in officers? Read your responses, that's why. The OP had someone follow him back to his home and threaten him, and you want to arrest him? Guess what? its not against the law to tell someone to stop breaking the law, none whatsoever. If you're been a LEO as long as you claim, you know that 'words,' would NEVER justify they biker's user of deadly force against the OP, so why are you defending it so hard? Why?

Why do you continually ignore the biker's escalation of force? Is it because that would destroy your narrative? I'm thinking that's the case.

[Kfilly]

So wait, you believe that "LOCKING EVERYONE UP," is not a police state!? Huh.

Or maybe, now keep up as this is a radical approach to policing, we should trust the officer who was on scene and made the decision? I know this is a radical approach and not the norm, but still . . . .


Yeah . . . and yet you wanted to get the OP's information to forward to their police department for a felony conviction/charge.

Proven guilty before assumed innoncent must have been what the Founders meant about due process.

[Sparkyprep]

Hey Spark better get your facts straight. I'm not a proponent of a police state, however I do think the Cops suggestion that we lock all of you up (and let a judge decide who's story is more truthful) is what ought to have been done.

FYI I've been a Peace Officer for about as long as I was a Police Officer over the last 20 years.

Yes Sarge. Plesse, keep making my point for me.

[GMFuzy]

There were 4 other adult witnesses - and video.
The LT told me it " wasn't the smartest thing to do" but also told me I was within my rights to defend myself.
Sarge sounds like the type of cop that harasses skateboarders in a park when the junkies are slamming dope on the playground.
Aside from being unconstitutional to arrest "ALL" without cause or reason, it's actions like this that flood our criminal justice system routinely delaying court dates and also a gigantic waste of funds.

[Sarge7402]

I'm really glad to see the positions some of you have taken.

Yes, I've been a peace officer for over 20 years and have had to deal with similar events working in small towns. With regards to locking both parties up, let's make one thing clear, Skippy # 1 that pulled the knife out while making threats does make him an agressor. That being said it does give Fzy cause to meet that level of force with a similar level. Had Fzy drawn a pistol and held it at the low ready or down at the side of his leg, I would say that that is reasonable response.

However do any of you really believe that just displaying the knife and making threats would justify aiming at Skippy #1 and pulling the trigger? Would never qualify as a justifiable shooting. In that light Fzy pulling his knife and lunging at Skippy # 1 would also be seen as an excessive use of force. That would take him from the realm of victim to primary aggressor.

As for arresting both parties, it sounds like both sides have some valid points in that the other side committed an act of violence on the other. Since the police function is to bring those committing crimes before representatives of the criminal justice system, arresting both parties would seem to be the fair thing to do.

In that manner both FZy and Skippy #1 would get to present their side of the event before an impartial individual (the judge or jury)/panel.

As far as being unconstitutional that is how our legal system is supposed to function.

I'm terribly sorry if several of you feel that my taking a skeptical view of Fzy's account of what happened, it comes with listening to victims and perps for too many hours.

[hawgrider]

let's make one thing clear, Skippy # 1 that pulled the knife out while making threats does make him an agressor. That being said it does give Fzy cause to meet that level of force with a similar level.

Equal force went out with the 90's
Mi. Self defence laws says if you try to attack me with a garbage can lid I do not have to retreat and If am in fear for my life can fill you full of lead.

[juskom95]

I'm really glad to see the positions some of you have taken.

Yes, I've been a peace officer for over 20 years and have had to deal with similar events working in small towns. With regards to locking both parties up, let's make one thing clear, Skippy # 1 that pulled the knife out while making threats does make him an agressor. That being said it does give Fzy cause to meet that level of force with a similar level. Had Fzy drawn a pistol and held it at the low ready or down at the side of his leg, I would say that that is reasonable response.

But you just stated before that GMFuzy was the aggressor for speaking out about a crime in progress.

However do any of you really believe that just displaying the knife and making threats would justify aiming at Skippy #1 and pulling the trigger? Would never qualify as a justifiable shooting. In that light Fzy pulling his knife and lunging at Skippy # 1 would also be seen as an excessive use of force. That would take him from the realm of victim to primary aggressor.

Considering that as a LEO it would be a justifiable use of force, yes. Last I checked a knife is considered a deadly weapon, unless something has changed and if they were within lunging distance it would be reasonable to believe one's life was in danger or they were facing imminent harm.

As for arresting both parties, it sounds like both sides have some valid points in that the other side committed an act of violence on the other. Since the police function is to bring those committing crimes before representatives of the criminal justice system, arresting both parties would seem to be the fair thing to do.

You're a "Big City," LEO aren't you?
The reality is that the officers had a "He said," type of account where each person was accusing the other as being the aggressor, video evidence withstanding. Maybe your approach is "LOCK EVERYONE UP!!!!" but most LEO's I've encountered and worked with are not like that, as reality would not support that.

In that manner both FZy and Skippy #1 would get to present their side of the event before an impartial individual (the judge or jury)/panel.

No reason to lock them up for that, and you even know better.

As far as being unconstitutional that is how our legal system is supposed to function.

The reality is that unless GMFuzy or the biker were an obvious threat AT THAT TIME then locking them up would get the officer (justifiably) called onto the carpet. Worst case, charges would be filed and the pair would have a court date scheduled.

I'm terribly sorry if several of you feel that my taking a skeptical view of Fzy's account of what happened, it comes with listening to victims and perps for too many hours.

Um, not quite. Good try, very good try, but try it on someone who didn't walk the walk why don't you.

You have an ego issue when it comes to being a LEO, and I've had to deal with your type when I worked the road repeatedly and one thing was always consistent. In your mind, EVERYONE IS A CRIMINAL, GUILTY FIRST and you don't care about anything else. You've been an officer for twenty years, and it shows that it is a definite "Us vs Them," attitude in your mind. As long as there are those out there with your mindset, officers will struggle to gain a community's trust.

[juskom95]

Equal force went out with the 90's
Mi. Self defence laws says if you try to attack me with a garbage can lid I do not have to retreat and If am in fear for my life can fill you full of lead.

Equal Force is not even part of ROE/RUF any longer. It is equal or greater force. If someone drew a knife on an officer and they drew their sidearm that is completely, %100 acceptable as a knife is deadly force. Yes the preferable choice is going to be less lethal, but a knife is (and has been for decades) been considered a deadly weapon.

[Mister Mills]

From my own experiences, I'm guessing the "Rude Cop," was young and/or new/inexperienced?

Especially if you have video of the altercation, to just be arresting you when it is a he said/he said situation . . .

On another note, I have ran into an increasing amount of LEO's who have a distaste for veterans in general.

Cops have an even greater distaste for vets who were in Airborne or SOCOM units, they must picture them as loose cannons. Guys who were Paratroopers, or Rangers or SF, inspire fear, and aversion. That is a personal belief of mine, and I think that it runs through general society. Most people will never think about joining the Army, much less the 75th Rangers, or the 82nd.