Freedom from Utility companies

[MountainGirl]

Our forecast is a solid week of >90F. Today is expected to be 97. NWS is showing heat warnings in a huge area. Need to prep backup power for freezer, frig, AC & fans. Lots of wattage.


Fuse are popping in sections around here 8k without power yesterday we were lucky and on the right side of the outtage yesterday. Aging electrical equipment that they didnt touch while building all the new big foot home neighborhoods where cornfields used to be. 4pm peak usage fuses blow or transformers fail.

I've got a question for you two - and EVERYBODY - about something.

Unless you live in an apartment, where it would be impossible to do, instead of having 'emergency backup' - why not tell your power company to go shove - and live totally unhooked from them full time? Forget the 'sell the excess back' game. You can use it all.

Yes, major bucks. BUT - if you're already in your final retirement place/etc, there's no reason to not. If you're not yet there - everything in the system you can take with you and hook back up - and your house is already wired for it.

It would have cost us over $40K to have power brought to the property line. The system we have cost somewhere just under $20K (dont recall exact). But, here's what it does, every day:
220 well pump (160'), 81gal pressure tank fills 4 or 5 times a day (flush, showers, watering outside etc)
Ref/freezer
Microwave, toasters, hot plates, crockpot (got one going now), Tom's Keurig (lol)
W/D
A/C
Lights, tv, comp systems, radios, music all day...
Vacuum, HairDryer,
Shop tools & cordless tool chargers
Big battery chargers
(Tom runs welder off the shop gen)

This place is just like an all-electric home, and we use lots of wattage. The only difference* is instead of a main feed coming in to the breaker box from a utility company - the feed comes in from the battery bank (through the inverter, etc) which is replenished by the sun, even on overcast days.

I'm not bragging, or saying my way is better, so put a sock in that thought.

I'm just wondering, is doing this something any of you have really considered or looked in to?

All thoughts welcome, thanks!



*****
*We heat with the wood stove, and have a propane range in the kitchen. When the propane HW tank needs replacing, we're going to switch to elec HW - and may do the same for the range at some point. Not having to mess with propane would be a blessing too. :)

[BucketBack]

LPG sucks, Natural Gas stops 600' away.

[MountainGirl]

LPG sucks, Natural Gas stops 600' away.
Yes, it does suck, and (shtf, etc) who knows for how long, or if, it would be obtainable.
Same for Natural Gas, too.

[BucketBack]

I'm watching out for a wood burner at yard sale prices.

An average 10 acres of oak will produce enough deadfall to heat for a winter. I live next to 1000 acres

[hawgrider]

Some maybe most metro suburban areas won't let you disconnect. Just happened in Florida not to long ago they (government) went after a off grid house in a suburban neighborhood.

[MountainGirl]

Some maybe most metro suburban areas won't let you disconnect. Just happened in Florida not to long ago they (government) went after a off grid house in a suburban neighborhood.

That would piss me off.

What I'd do then would be
1) install a new panel, switch the utility's line over to it, and run one little lamp on the city power.
2) run the solar feed into the old panel - with all the existing house lines in place.

That way I'm not 'off-grid' and would know there's a power outage when the lamp goes out. LOL

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Thanks for your reply :)

[Kfilly]

I've got a question for you two - and EVERYBODY - about something.

Unless you live in an apartment, where it would be impossible to do, instead of having 'emergency backup' - why not tell your power company to go shove - and live totally unhooked from them full time? Forget the 'sell the excess back' game. You can use it all.

Yes, major bucks. BUT - if you're already in your final retirement place/etc, there's no reason to not. If you're not yet there - everything in the system you can take with you and hook back up - and your house is already wired for it.

It would have cost us over $40K to have power brought to the property line. The system we have cost somewhere just under $20K (dont recall exact). But, here's what it does, every day:
220 well pump (160'), 81gal pressure tank fills 4 or 5 times a day (flush, showers, watering outside etc)
Ref/freezer
Microwave, toasters, hot plates, crockpot (got one going now), Tom's Keurig (lol)
W/D
A/C
Lights, tv, comp systems, radios, music all day...
Vacuum, HairDryer,
Shop tools & cordless tool chargers
Big battery chargers
(Tom runs welder off the shop gen)

This place is just like an all-electric home, and we use lots of wattage. The only difference* is instead of a main feed coming in to the breaker box from a utility company - the feed comes in from the battery bank (through the inverter, etc) which is replenished by the sun, even on overcast days.

I'm not bragging, or saying my way is better, so put a sock in that thought.

I'm just wondering, is doing this something any of you have really considered or looked in to?

All thoughts welcome, thanks!



*****
*We heat with the wood stove, and have a propane range in the kitchen. When the propane HW tank needs replacing, we're going to switch to elec HW - and may do the same for the range at some point. Not having to mess with propane would be a blessing too. :)

The reason people are not allowed to live off grid goes back to the days of Nicholai Tesla. Tesla allegedly (I believe he did) built a way to generate free electricity. The story goes that JP Morgan heard about this, and he purchased the idea from Tesla. Morgan subsequently buried the idea which means most people are now dependent upon a power grid which Wall Street Banks own a large percent of. These people will not let people off of their control grid as it grants them money and power. As for the rest of the story, Tesla ended up dying broke and a largely forgotten man. Few people even heard of his Tesla device.

A Tesla device is something along these lines:

https://youtu.be/-pDJVCCTycQ

[MountainGirl]

...most people are now dependent...
Only because they choose to be.

Yes, that's harsh, and sometimes the choices made are the only ones for the situation.
Been there, done that.

But there are usually ways, to do what you want to do, when you want something enough to actually do it.



(I'll go read your Tesla thread now, thanks!)

[TJC44]

I am in suburbia hell right now. So close to the airport I can see the pilot smiling on Final approach.
I do plan on uprooting myself, but it will take a few more years to pull off. I am just hoping to stay employed for that long, then I will be heading North, and disappear from the face of the Earth for 99.99999999% of the population. Today was brutal, I ended up shelling out $300 for another 12000 BTU's of cool. Yes, off grid that would not even be a consideration.
Mrs TJC does not have the same mindset. She would leave this place too, but she wants Florida. Who in their right minds goes to ass sweating hot, humid Florida???(sorry, Sparky, Slippy, RPD), but she still hates being hot, and inside the house got up to 91 today. I know I am rambling, trying to stay on point, too many Twisted Teas today.
O.K. Like I said, I am looking at property, with acreage, cheap, to disappear to. I do have 100 watts of solar on standby, I dam near pulled the trigger on a new generator today, still not ruling it out, I need to see how the grid handles a super hot Monday, we will be close to capacity.
A little more time.............................................. ...

[Dwight55]

Only because they choose to be.

Yes, that's harsh, and sometimes the choices made are the only ones for the situation.
Been there, done that.

But there are usually ways, to do what you want to do, when you want something enough to actually do it.



My system is much smaller than yours, . . . only 4KW peak, . . . 2KW continuous, . . . but with two auto batteries, . . . it'll do my basic household needs minus the A/C and the electric stove.

Conservation would allow the freezer to be topped off today, . . . fridge tomorrow, . . . would give me an hour on the computer each day, . . . and lights for about 3 hours at night.

No, . . . no well pump, no A/C, no furnace, have to cook on a wood stove, . . . but my system will take care of me and my wife indefinitely, . . . and initial total cost was well under $1000.

May God bless,
Dwight

[MountainGirl]

I am in suburbia hell right now. So close to the airport I can see the pilot smiling on Final approach.
I do plan on uprooting myself, but it will take a few more years to pull off. I am just hoping to stay employed for that long, then I will be heading North, and disappear from the face of the Earth for 99.99999999% of the population. Today was brutal, I ended up shelling out $300 for another 12000 BTU's of cool. Yes, off grid that would not even be a consideration.
Mrs TJC does not have the same mindset. She would leave this place too, but she wants Florida. Who in their right minds goes to ass sweating hot, humid Florida???(sorry, Sparky, Slippy, RPD), but she still hates being hot, and inside the house got up to 91 today. I know I am rambling, trying to stay on point, too many Twisted Teas today.
O.K. Like I said, I am looking at property, with acreage, cheap, to disappear to. I do have 100 watts of solar on standby, I dam near pulled the trigger on a new generator today, still not ruling it out, I need to see how the grid handles a super hot Monday, we will be close to capacity.
A little more time.............................................. ...

You have my sincerest condolences, TJC, I lived for a long time in a place similar to that; your tolerance must be far greater than mine. Not familiar with gens designed for suburban backup but I hope the one you get is one you can take with you for a stand alone system. It would make a good first 'step' towards your later move. :)

[MountainGirl]

My system is much smaller than yours, . . . only 4KW peak, . . . 2KW continuous, . . . but with two auto batteries, . . . it'll do my basic household needs minus the A/C and the electric stove.

Conservation would allow the freezer to be topped off today, . . . fridge tomorrow, . . . would give me an hour on the computer each day, . . . and lights for about 3 hours at night.

No, . . . no well pump, no A/C, no furnace, have to cook on a wood stove, . . . but my system will take care of me and my wife indefinitely, . . . and initial total cost was well under $1000.

May God bless,
Dwight
And that ^^ is the ticket.
If you wanted to - you could tell your power company to go shove. I'm all for using resources available to us, for comfort and joy; it's having a choice, especially when it comes to survival, that seems paramount, to me.
Thanks for replying, Dwight. I always enjoy your words. :)

[juskom95]

Geography for me.

I did the math, and with where I am currently at I cannot get enough sun to power enough of my home.

Now long term? Yes, that is my plan. Buy a retirement property and plan that from the ground up, but retrofitting existing homes can be impossible in most cases.

[MountainGirl]

Geography for me.

I did the math, and with where I am currently at I cannot get enough sun to power enough of my home.

Now long term? Yes, that is my plan. Buy a retirement property and plan that from the ground up, but retrofitting existing homes can be impossible in most cases.

Sounds like a plan. :)
But retrofitting? As long as there's a spot for panels, batteries & inverter etc - not sure what the 'impossible' would be.

[juskom95]

Sounds like a plan. :)
Long term, I have my hopes!


But retrofitting? As long as there's a spot for panels, batteries & inverter etc - not sure what the 'impossible' would be.
Some of it comes down to latitude, how much of the sun's light is even possible to gather, then it comes down to a clear view of the sky. Where I am at in KY, I simply don't have the clear space to put up enough panels with enough line of sight to get enough light for minimal power. If I cut down ALL of my trees and covered my roof in panels, it would be a strong maybe if I would get enough.

I did the math when moving here, close to $100k with batteries to retrofit the house I'm in. Now if I move out into the country I still have the latitude problem, but I can pick a clear spot with a good line of sight to the sky and plan the house around a combination of LP and power.

[Walter Tyler]

There are only 2 GOOD reasons to go solar or to self generate electricity.

1. The cost to "connect" to the grid is over $25k (as in MtGirls case).
2. When SHTF and electrical conveniences become "Priceless".

I have spread sheet after spread sheet documenting the ROI on going solar "to screw the electric co", and the math NEVER works out... until 15 or so years later.
Here in MO the average cost of AMEREN power is 10 cents per KWH. Generating with a Gas/other fuel generator is around 35 cents per KwH. It gets better with a wood gas type of generator but you still need the Maintenance supplies and time.

I got a lil bit o solar on some of the barns for trickle chargers on batteries and some lights, but thats just cause it has been inconvenient to run power out to them.

I have/am considering Solar for the Shack for when I "retire" but, that will just be to buy the power up front and be a sort of inflation hedge. It just doesnt make sense for us now because by the time I retire the system we buy today will be at its average service end by the time I retire, not including batteries. I am hoping Self generating systems are more efficient and better battery technology will come around before I drop $15-20k on a system that will only work at "peak" for the next 10-15 years.

I am just fine with the $1200 we pay per YEAR and the convenience of having "infinite" juice at our fingertips... but thats just me.

[juskom95]

I have spread sheet after spread sheet documenting the ROI on going solar "to screw the electric co", and the math NEVER works out... until 15 or so years later.


About the time the panels need replaced too.

The closer to the equator you get, the more economical sense it makes too. I did the ROI calculations too, still not out of the question, but for my 'retirement cabin,' I'm going to plan it carefully.

Some places the cost to run utilities is insane.

[Walter Tyler]

I would have enough power to run a "Sub Division" off of hydro power... If the crick wasnt 3/4 of a mile from the house...oh... and the floods... fuckin floods.

The ole timers called it "the Mill Creek" for a reason...

[MountainGirl]

Long term, I have my hopes!


Some of it comes down to latitude, how much of the sun's light is even possible to gather, then it comes down to a clear view of the sky. Where I am at in KY, I simply don't have the clear space to put up enough panels with enough line of sight to get enough light for minimal power. If I cut down ALL of my trees and covered my roof in panels, it would be a strong maybe if I would get enough.

I did the math when moving here, close to $100k with batteries to retrofit the house I'm in. Now if I move out into the country I still have the latitude problem, but I can pick a clear spot with a good line of sight to the sky and plan the house around a combination of LP and power.

Trees would be an issue; hate to see them cut down. Our only reasonably flat south-facing treeless spot was 100' up the mtn from the cabin.
$100K? I could light up the surrounding 3 miles for that, lol. Not sure how long ago you did the math - but the prices have come down about 70% over the last 10yrs. Our system would have been easily $80K in 2005. Here's a few links if anyone is interested.

https://www.seia.org/solar-industry-research-data
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https://www.vox.com/2016/8/24/12620920/us-solar-power-costs-falling
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[MountainGirl]

There are only 2 GOOD reasons to go solar or to self generate electricity.

1. The cost to "connect" to the grid is over $25k (as in MtGirls case).
2. When SHTF and electrical conveniences become "Priceless".

I have spread sheet after spread sheet documenting the ROI on going solar "to screw the electric co", and the math NEVER works out... until 15 or so years later.
Here in MO the average cost of AMEREN power is 10 cents per KWH. Generating with a Gas/other fuel generator is around 35 cents per KwH. It gets better with a wood gas type of generator but you still need the Maintenance supplies and time.

I got a lil bit o solar on some of the barns for trickle chargers on batteries and some lights, but thats just cause it has been inconvenient to run power out to them.

I have/am considering Solar for the Shack for when I "retire" but, that will just be to buy the power up front and be a sort of inflation hedge. It just doesnt make sense for us now because by the time I retire the system we buy today will be at its average service end by the time I retire, not including batteries. I am hoping Self generating systems are more efficient and better battery technology will come around before I drop $15-20k on a system that will only work at "peak" for the next 10-15 years.

I am just fine with the $1200 we pay per YEAR and the convenience of having "infinite" juice at our fingertips... but thats just me.

Yes, that is one consideration (time aspect). Because we're old (lol) we need our system to last about 10-15 yrs...and we keep $20K in reserve for system replacement if need be - just in case the mountain doesn't 'get us' first. ;)
Thanks for your reply!

[juskom95]

Trees would be an issue; hate to see them cut down. Our only reasonably flat south-facing treeless spot was 100' up the mtn from the cabin.
$100K? I could light up the surrounding 3 miles for that, lol. Not sure how long ago you did the math - but the prices have come down about 70% over the last 10yrs. Our system would have been easily $80K in 2005. Here's a few links if anyone is interested.


The biggest costs were batteries. You're running a VERY minimal setup, power consumption wise, probably around 1/4 of an average home. That is where the additional cost comes in, especially when you consider HVAC.

[MountainGirl]

The biggest costs were batteries. You're running a VERY minimal setup, power consumption wise, probably around 1/4 of an average home. That is where the additional cost comes in, especially when you consider HVAC.

Ah...right. I forget sometimes that most of the US cant survive without A/C. We run fans & air conditioners up here on the few times it's in the 90s... but the sun is always bright then meeting that need. One thing that really surprised me (because before installation all I knew was what 'charts' told me re sizing/need/etc) is that even on all but the heaviest overcast days - power still came down from the array, and even on those days we still always get a trickle (200-300w). Normal cloudy days it comes down like 80% of bright sunny days. Yeah, the batteries were $10K alone. 16 Rolls-Surrette. I wanted to make sure we could always run the well pump, and Tom wanted a fridge/freezer after hauling ice up here for 10 years. Here's a pic from the build:
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[Walter Tyler]

Ah...right. I forget sometimes that most of the US cant survive without A/C. We run fans & air conditioners up here on the few times it's in the 90s... but the sun is always bright meeting that need. One thing that really surprised me (because before installation all I knew was what 'charts' told me re sizing/need/etc) is that even on all but the heaviest overcast days - power still came down from the array. Normal cloudy days its like 80% of bright sunny days. Yeah, the batteries were 10K alone. 16 Rolls-Surrette. I wanted to make sure we could always run the well pump, and Tom wanted a fridge/freezer after hauling ice up here for 10 years. Here's a pic from the build:
5248

Fuck YEAH!!! Someone aint Fuckin around... Sweet.

[juskom95]

Ah...right. I forget sometimes that most of the US cant survive without A/C. We run fans & air conditioners up here on the few times it's in the 90s... but the sun is always bright then meeting that need.
The ironic thing is, the hotter areas get more usable UV light for power. I've been in a no-AC condition in the upper nineties (and the 110+), you won't last long doing much of anything except sitting in a cool area. Forget yard work or anything rough, even when you're accumulated to it, you have to be careful.


One thing that really surprised me (because before installation all I knew was what 'charts' told me re sizing/need/etc) is that even on all but the heaviest overcast days - power still came down from the array, and even on those days we still always get a trickle (200-300w). Normal cloudy days it comes down like 80% of bright sunny days.
To give you an idea, when I was in LA we had to run the AC constantly to keep the home below 85. Over the last weekend, the AC was on constantly to to the same thing. They are going to be pulling roughly 3.5 kW per ton, per hour, roughly.

Lights are easy ones, their power consumption can be lowered quite readily. Something I learned about fans in LA though, if you're running multiple, constantly their draw can/will cause bulbs to burn out much quicker, it has something to do with their constant amperage.


Yeah, the batteries were $10K alone. 16 Rolls-Surrette. I wanted to make sure we could always run the well pump, and Tom wanted a fridge/freezer after hauling ice up here for 10 years. Here's a pic from the build:


Fridge/freezers are another big energy pull. I run two fridges and a freezer (I have a family) which is an additional draw.


I did the math, and retro-fitting an existing home is expensive, plus there is the behavior of those who live within. They have to also keep consumption in mind. I'm not against it, but some areas it won't work as readily as others.

Now if I had a natural gas well . . . . .

[Walter Tyler]

Bury the House...

[juskom95]

Bury the House...

Yeah, with the way this summer has gone, the only cool place is our basement!

[MountainGirl]

The ironic thing is, the hotter areas get more usable UV light for power. I've been in a no-AC condition in the upper nineties (and the 110+), you won't last long doing much of anything except sitting in a cool area. Forget yard work or anything rough, even when you're accumulated to it, you have to be careful.


To give you an idea, when I was in LA we had to run the AC constantly to keep the home below 85. Over the last weekend, the AC was on constantly to to the same thing. They are going to be pulling roughly 3.5 kW per ton, per hour, roughly.

Lights are easy ones, their power consumption can be lowered quite readily. Something I learned about fans in LA though, if you're running multiple, constantly their draw can/will cause bulbs to burn out much quicker, it has something to do with their constant amperage.



Fridge/freezers are another big energy pull. I run two fridges and a freezer (I have a family) which is an additional draw.


I did the math, and retro-fitting an existing home is expensive, plus there is the behavior of those who live within. They have to also keep consumption in mind. I'm not against it, but some areas it won't work as readily as others.

Now if I had a natural gas well . . . . .

Juskom, you have totally reached the MG threshold of not feasible for you!! LOL
Hoping for you cooler, and quieter, days ahead - sooner rather than later.
Best regards. :)

[juskom95]

Juskom, you have totally reached the MG threshold of not feasible for you!! LOL
I love KY, but it has been a hell of a summer and I wouldn't give up my AC . . . even after getting the utility bill!


Hoping for you cooler, and quieter, days ahead - sooner rather than later.
Best regards. :)
Yup.


I do like reading accounts like yours though, it gives me great ideas for retirement so I don't have to deal with crazy utilities and I can minimize my contact with society. I even got the wife on board too!