Utilization of land

[Coppertop]

Not sure where to put this, so if someone wants to move it, please do so.

I see in a few posts that some property is being bought by folks on here. As I had talked to Omega about in another post, carrying capacity of land varies, but here is my thought for maximizing your land. I know this idea works for small or large places (1 acre in KY versus 4 sections + in my part of the world). The one big difference in size is defendability/protection, so a smaller place being better utilized might be better in that regard. I would like to hear your folks thoughts.

Fence your land into smaller sections. I would like to use a 10 acre parcel for illustration purposes. Assume that your house and barn are on one acre. Split the rest into 1 acre plots using a solar panel powered electric fence. You put (again for illustration) 10 head of sheep on one plot, then go out the next day or two and move them to the next plot. This would happen every day or so during the grass growing season, then when things dried up you could leave them for longer in each plot. During the growing season this would allow the herd to have fresh grass on a daily basis and later in the year, it would allow them to clean up the grass. I feel that grass left in the field is weight gain/nutrition lost. Granted you don't want to eat it down to bare dirt (say leave 25% of the grass there by fall) If the sheep are getting fresh grass everyday, you should be able to handle a greater number of them year round through better feed and longer lasting feed.

Think about cutting your lawn. When you cut it, it grows right back, but the longer you leave it the slower it grows (depending on water) Grass has a life cycle so if you keep it in the "mid" range it should be a good balance between growth and survivability. Survivability would be the difference between cutting your lawn and rototilling it.

After you move your sheep each day or so, you would move a chicken "tractor" on to that plot. The tractor is a moveable coop/ run. This movement would allow the chickens to feast on the bugs that are feeding on the sheep droppings and on some left over grass seeds etc. Each time you move the "tractor", you would set it on a different spot in the plot. This would cut a lot of chicken feed out of the budget.

The expenses would be the charger, fencing and water tanks. You would need to put water tank accessability in each plot. You could do this by splitting them up in quarters at a fence crossing. This would cover 4 plots per tank (depending on how your plots are layed out). The other option would be to have a movable tank and a way to fill it in each plot.

The other expense would be "man hours". Moving your sheep every day might sould time consuming, but in a one acre plot it wouldn't be to hard and I think after a few days the sheep would get the idea and be pretty easy to move. A bonus to this is that your sheep would be more used to you and be a lot calmer.

I'm sure I left out a thought process or two, so please ask questions or point out flaws and we can discuss them. Thanks for your time to read this.

[Baglady]

I like the idea's. And it would be a good thing for someone starting on a new place to incorporate these idea's.
Goats might be another choice, or in addition to a few sheep.
That way you could have milk, and meat.
Lot easier to deal with than pigs..

[Innkeeper]

Heck with all the pigs roaming free in so many states especially the south, in a post SHTF scenario might be a good way to get some, I hear they are pretty easy to domesticate, then we would not need to go without BACON.

[omegabrock]

I like the idea's. And it would be a good thing for someone starting on a new place to incorporate these idea's.
Goats might be another choice, or in addition to a few sheep.
That way you could have milk, and meat.
Lot easier to deal with than pigs..

i was planning on getting a few goats...it will be a little while though seeing as i have to get a horse area set up and ready, then get a horse, then get in the routine of maintaining said horse...

[Baglady]

i was planning on getting a few goats...it will be a little while though seeing as i have to get a horse area set up and ready, then get a horse, then get in the routine of maintaining said horse...Dont know what your level of experience with horses is, but if you need any help with that, holler at me.
I've owned, raised, rode, drove and shown horses and mules all my life.

[omegabrock]

Dont know what your level of experience with horses is, but if you need any help with that, holler at me.
I've owned, raised, rode, drove and shown horses and mules all my life.

the extent of my knowledge would take less time to tell you then to give a witty response about how little i know lol.

im definitely still in the 'research' phase. once we move, i'm planning on going to a local stable and hanging around them a few days to learn hands on.
i have a pole barn (?) i plan on crossing over for him. the size of his 'living area' im still not sure about. i plan on having someone come out and checking the land and grass to see how big it should be for him to graze a majority of his diet and a high estimate of how much supplemental food i need for a bad winter and start stocking that.
i know what type of fence i want
the going age i've been told for a beginner horse owner is around 10 years old. i've also been told an American quarter horse or a paint horse is great for beginners.
i also need to at least start taking riding lessons and buying all of the 'start up' stuff...

that is the extent of what i know and i feel like i know nothing. any other tips, i'd be happy to take them and i'm sure i will have a lot of questions in the future lol

[Baglady]

Sounds like you've got some good plans. Two things I think you should know first. It is recomended that you have an acre per horse for grazing. That's bull. You need at least 2 acres per, or it will be over grazed. This can be split in half, where you can rotate grazing.
Most pastured horses will pick out "potty spots". Of course they'll poop elsewhere, but, you will soon notice a heavy accumulation of manure in a certain spot. (or 2) Naturally, they won't graze there.
Secondly, being a QH lady myself, I would suggest you look into buying a Gaited horse as your first choice. They are smoother riding than a QH, and they have a more laid back additude. Yes, the age range of 8-12 would be good.
Just don't buy into the hype of having to have them, (Gaited horse), shod with toe weights, or plantation shoes. You don't need or want anything like that for trail riding. Just flat shod, like a QH. It's not important or nessesary for the Gaited horse to be shod just so they'll pick up their feet a little higher.

[RWalls]

Good plans for a heard. I need to get chickens on my land and maybe some rabbits.

[Montana Rancher]

Not sure where to put this, so if someone wants to move it, please do so.

I see in a few posts that some property is being bought by folks on here. As I had talked to Omega about in another post, carrying capacity of land varies, but here is my thought for maximizing your land. I know this idea works for small or large places (1 acre in KY versus 4 sections + in my part of the world). The one big difference in size is defendability/protection, so a smaller place being better utilized might be better in that regard. I would like to hear your folks thoughts.

Fence your land into smaller sections. I would like to use a 10 acre parcel for illustration purposes. Assume that your house and barn are on one acre. Split the rest into 1 acre plots using a solar panel powered electric fence. You put (again for illustration) 10 head of sheep on one plot, then go out the next day or two and move them to the next plot. This would happen every day or so during the grass growing season, then when things dried up you could leave them for longer in each plot. During the growing season this would allow the herd to have fresh grass on a daily basis and later in the year, it would allow them to clean up the grass. I feel that grass left in the field is weight gain/nutrition lost. Granted you don't want to eat it down to bare dirt (say leave 25% of the grass there by fall) If the sheep are getting fresh grass everyday, you should be able to handle a greater number of them year round through better feed and longer lasting feed.

Think about cutting your lawn. When you cut it, it grows right back, but the longer you leave it the slower it grows (depending on water) Grass has a life cycle so if you keep it in the "mid" range it should be a good balance between growth and survivability. Survivability would be the difference between cutting your lawn and rototilling it.

After you move your sheep each day or so, you would move a chicken "tractor" on to that plot. The tractor is a moveable coop/ run. This movement would allow the chickens to feast on the bugs that are feeding on the sheep droppings and on some left over grass seeds etc. Each time you move the "tractor", you would set it on a different spot in the plot. This would cut a lot of chicken feed out of the budget.

The expenses would be the charger, fencing and water tanks. You would need to put water tank accessability in each plot. You could do this by splitting them up in quarters at a fence crossing. This would cover 4 plots per tank (depending on how your plots are layed out). The other option would be to have a movable tank and a way to fill it in each plot.

The other expense would be "man hours". Moving your sheep every day might sould time consuming, but in a one acre plot it wouldn't be to hard and I think after a few days the sheep would get the idea and be pretty easy to move. A bonus to this is that your sheep would be more used to you and be a lot calmer.

I'm sure I left out a thought process or two, so please ask questions or point out flaws and we can discuss them. Thanks for your time to read this.

A good post to get people thinking but I am assuming you haven't tried this yourself as it has a few holes.

1. You can't keep sheep contained with a electric fence, trust me it is hard to keep sheep after stringing 4x4" metal woven wire fence.

2. If by chance you can keep your sheep contained with a electric fence, that will not keep out the Varmints (mostly domestic dog and cyotes)

3. After you conquer those 2 hurdles we address a SHTF problem which means everyone in your immediate area taking what you have.

I realize you live in SE Montana which means your plans could actually work as there are so few people living there, but points 1 and 2 make your plans hard to obtain.

[Coppertop]

A good post to get people thinking but I am assuming you haven't tried this yourself as it has a few holes.

1. You can't keep sheep contained with a electric fence, trust me it is hard to keep sheep after stringing 4x4" metal woven wire fence.

2. If by chance you can keep your sheep contained with a electric fence, that will not keep out the Varmints (mostly domestic dog and cyotes)

3. After you conquer those 2 hurdles we address a SHTF problem which means everyone in your immediate area taking what you have.

I realize you live in SE Montana which means your plans could actually work as there are so few people living there, but points 1 and 2 make your plans hard to obtain.


MR.
Thank you

Actually I have done it on a bigger scale. 40 to 60 acre plots with cattle on a 1200 acre ranch, but you are correct as far as my personal experience with sheep.

I have some friends that have done this with sheep, and they have a very small problem with escapees, but it isn't fool proof. They hang 3 wire electric fence, and have watched coyotes walk around their place but not enter as the lower wire catches them and shocks them. There are also other ways to deter coyotes (dogs, Llamas, donkeys,etc) that are the same as in bigger pastures.

The example I used was trying to address the SHTF situation. Smaller herds and smaller land area to keep track of.

I appreciate the feedback and your candor.

Thanks

[Coppertop]

Sounds like you've got some good plans. Two things I think you should know first. It is recomended that you have an acre per horse for grazing. That's bull. You need at least 2 acres per, or it will be over grazed. This can be split in half, where you can rotate grazing.
Most pastured horses will pick out "potty spots". Of course they'll poop elsewhere, but, you will soon notice a heavy accumulation of manure in a certain spot. (or 2) Naturally, they won't graze there.
Secondly, being a QH lady myself, I would suggest you look into buying a Gaited horse as your first choice. They are smoother riding than a QH, and they have a more laid back additude. Yes, the age range of 8-12 would be good.
Just don't buy into the hype of having to have them, (Gaited horse), shod with toe weights, or plantation shoes. You don't need or want anything like that for trail riding. Just flat shod, like a QH. It's not important or nessesary for the Gaited horse to be shod just so they'll pick up their feet a little higher.

Baglady, I just want to point out that in OK, an acre or 2 per horse may not be a correct figure. In my part of the world, 40 acres a horse for year around is a conservative figure. I rented out 2 irrigated acres I had to horse owners and 2 head would graze it off in a month. Just a thought.

I personally prefer QH over any other horse. Maybe it depends on what your needs are? We work cattle, sheep, etc. and pleasure riding per se is not known, although we get pleasure from working from horseback.

Thanks

[Baglady]

Baglady, I just want to point out that in OK, an acre or 2 per horse may not be a correct figure. In my part of the world, 40 acres a horse for year around is a conservative figure. I rented out 2 irrigated acres I had to horse owners and 2 head would graze it off in a month. Just a thought.

I personally prefer QH over any other horse. Maybe it depends on what your needs are? We work cattle, sheep, etc. and pleasure riding per se is not known, although we get pleasure from working from horseback.

ThanksI did'nt think about where OmegaBrock is located. I don't know about the grass situation in Oklahoma, or Montana. Here, and most places I've lived, with proper pasture management, you can easily graze one horse on a split 2 acres.
Planting winter grass, like Rye is one option we have, but we also buy round bales in the winter.
I'm a QH lady too. But I feel that if it's his first horse, a Gaited horse would be a better fit.
Of course a lot depends on how much he's willing to pay for a horse, and how that horse was trained.
Baby steps, and safety first is my motto to new horse owners.

[omegabrock]

Sounds like you've got some good plans. Two things I think you should know first. It is recomended that you have an acre per horse for grazing. That's bull. You need at least 2 acres per, or it will be over grazed. This can be split in half, where you can rotate grazing.
Most pastured horses will pick out "potty spots". Of course they'll poop elsewhere, but, you will soon notice a heavy accumulation of manure in a certain spot. (or 2) Naturally, they won't graze there.
Secondly, being a QH lady myself, I would suggest you look into buying a Gaited horse as your first choice. They are smoother riding than a QH, and they have a more laid back additude. Yes, the age range of 8-12 would be good.
Just don't buy into the hype of having to have them, (Gaited horse), shod with toe weights, or plantation shoes. You don't need or want anything like that for trail riding. Just flat shod, like a QH. It's not important or nessesary for the Gaited horse to be shod just so they'll pick up their feet a little higher.

thanks lady...i honestly wasnt planning on shoes at all but im not sure what they do anyways lol

edit: also, hopefully i can get someone out to check our land out to see how much area is needed for grazing and if supplementing a bigger portion would be better

[omegabrock]

another question...when rotating, how often do you rotate from 1 half to the other? and how much would that change depending on the size?

[Pauls]

I just deleted a very sarcastic post. goats will pull the roots of a plant up and eat them - horses won't. When the feed stock gets close to the ground it is time to move them and let the feed grow back.

I would put in a mix like prairie grass and alfalfa and a completely separate area for oats. You can supplement their winter feed with the oats and let them graze on the grass and alfalfa. Both are drought resistant and have deep root systems so you won't have to constantly replant if you keep the animals moving from one area to another. The oats will likely have to be planted annually.

[Montana Rancher]

I did'nt think about where OmegaBrock is located. I don't know about the grass situation in Oklahoma, or Montana. Here, and most places I've lived, with proper pasture management, you can easily graze one horse on a split 2 acres.
Planting winter grass, like Rye is one option we have, but we also buy round bales in the winter.
I'm a QH lady too. But I feel that if it's his first horse, a Gaited horse would be a better fit.
Of course a lot depends on how much he's willing to pay for a horse, and how that horse was trained.
Baby steps, and safety first is my motto to new horse owners.

Every area is different but here is some fodder for thought

I can easily graze 3 horses on irrigated land in the summer on 3 acres, but that is only covering about 4 months of the year, the remainder of the year I can keep those 3 horses but it takes 30 acres and even then I need to supplement feed when the snow gets too deep or hard for effective grazing.

After owning horses for 40 years, my pick is the Appaloosa, sorry to piss on your QH parade but beside a bit more maintence on the feet, they are a far more reliable mountain horse, and I believe more intelligent.

[omegabrock]

any special considerations for the winter? i've seen the blankets they wear. i mean, that can't be enough to keep them warm in the snow/ice can it? i'm thinking, even if i get everything set up and ready before, im going to wait until the spring to get him...of course, if im not ready by spring then i will wait longer.

MR - appaloosa, are those pretty docile? and what's a mountain horse?

[Coppertop]

any special considerations for the winter? i've seen the blankets they wear. i mean, that can't be enough to keep them warm in the snow/ice can it? i'm thinking, even if i get everything set up and ready before, im going to wait until the spring to get him...of course, if im not ready by spring then i will wait longer.

MR - appaloosa, are those pretty docile? and what's a mountain horse?

A horse doesn't need a blanket. All it really needs to stay warm is a place out of the wind and food. Horses are built to be outside and in the "wild"- just like a cow or a buffalo,etc. Ice or snow on a horse is actually an insulating blanket. There is enough hair on a horse to create a warm layer, and the snow or ice acts to keep the heat close to them, as well as a wind barrier. A blanket will cause them to grow less hair/insulation.

It is also asking for problems leaving a halter or a blanket on a horse if you aren't around to keep an eye on them (ie. letting them loose in the pasture while you are at work). If the halter or blanket hangs up on anything (post, wire, building, there are things in a pasture you would never find any other way) it could severely hurt or kill a horse. I have seen more than I care to remember hung on a steel post where they were rubbing their heads.

Thanks

[omegabrock]

haha so no heating system in the barn is necessary then

[Coppertop]

Not for the horse- if on the other hand you are going to spend a lot of time there- a "run while you are there" heater isn't a bad deal.

[Baglady]

another question...when rotating, how often do you rotate from 1 half to the other? and how much would that change depending on the size?There is a lot to learn about pasture management, and as pointed out by others, your area is different from places I've lived. Assuming you have good grass established, you will probably rotate every two weeks, (2 acre pasture).
Check with folks in your area about what types of grass they use.
A side note: Straight Alfalfa will give a horse the scours, (sh*ts).
Straight Oats has so much protein, it will seem like your horse is on uppers..
For normal use, and good nutrition, in addition to grazing or hay, a 12% All Grain is ideal.

[omegabrock]

Went out to the new place this weekend to get some measurements. Turns out, what I thought was a shed actually used to be stables. They used to have a few horses so that's a huge plus. They were also telling me for fencing, I *should* be able to just get some electric fencing and some flags (for more visibility) and just walk the horse along the fence line. Said it would only take once of getting zapped to learn and then there shouldn't be any issues after that was thinking, if that's the case, I could just do that around the entire 5 acres and let him free roam the whole stretch of land.

Thoughts?

[Sparkyprep]

From what I understand ( I've never owned horses) horses are much more intelligent, and less bull-headed than cows. For cows, I use 5 strands of barbed wire, overplayed with field-fence. I never had much luck with electric fences. They require too much maintenance.

[Pauls]

I have had two fires caused by the electric fences. They were both my fault because I let the grass gett too high and then dry out.

I had a hot wire within 6 inches of the ground and then alternated ground and hot wires for a total of seven wires. It was to keep the dogs on the property and it worked well. I don't think you need to be that elaborate with horses unless you have to keep canines out from molesting the animals inside the fence. I have seen horses sniff the top wire to see if it is on - I think they can smell the ozone - and once in a while they get a bit too close.It seems they always come back to test it though.

[Baglady]

Went out to the new place this weekend to get some measurements. Turns out, what I thought was a shed actually used to be stables. They used to have a few horses so that's a huge plus. They were also telling me for fencing, I *should* be able to just get some electric fencing and some flags (for more visibility) and just walk the horse along the fence line. Said it would only take once of getting zapped to learn and then there shouldn't be any issues after that was thinking, if that's the case, I could just do that around the entire 5 acres and let him free roam the whole stretch of land.

Thoughts?Yep. A solar charger is great. Make sure you buy the heavier guage wire. 2-3 strands will be all you need. You don't need a strand close to the ground, unless wolves, mountain lions, etc are a concern to your livestock. First strand can be 2ft off the ground, then go to a height of 5ft. I would still use steel posts, with the proper hot wire insulators. Not the fiberglass rods.

[omegabrock]

I was thinking the braided rope.

[Coppertop]

Yep. A solar charger is great. Make sure you buy the heavier guage wire. 2-3 strands will be all you need. You don't need a strand close to the ground, unless wolves, mountain lions, etc are a concern to your livestock. First strand can be 2ft off the ground, then go to a height of 5ft. I would still use steel posts, with the proper hot wire insulators. Not the fiberglass rods.

The steel posts are guaranteed grounding points as the insulators WILL fail. I have put 65-70 head of cattle out with the fiberglass rods and one wire about their chest in height. As Baglady said the lower wire is for keeping "vermin" out of the pasture. I do agree with her also on the point that a solar charger is effective. I used one on about 6 miles of fence and with a good ground, it was very authoritative. I have the name and number of a lady that I got my stuff from if you want it.

Thanks

[omegabrock]

What do you mean you put 65-70 head of cattle out? Is it good or bad wth the steel posts being grounding points? Sounds bad

[Coppertop]

What do you mean you put 65-70 head of cattle out? Is it good or bad wth the steel posts being grounding points? Sounds bad

Sorry- I mean I have made a pasture that held the cattle inside of it. It's a figure of speech. Grounding out an electrical fence is what causes it to not work right.

What happens when an animal touches the fence is that they make a connection from the live wire to either the ground or a "ground" wire in a multi strand fence. Them creating this connection is what sends the electricity through them causing the shock. If the wire is grounded out on a post or whatever (Pauls grass) then the electricity flows through that "channel" and not through the animal- hence no shock to the animal.

Thanks

[omegabrock]

That's what I was thinking

[Baglady]

The plastic insulators that are made for T-posts when using an electric fence, are very reliable, and easy to use. Horses are not going to push against this fence.
These insulators stick out away from the post about 3". We always wrap our wire/braided cord, once or twice around the insulator's extension, instead of just threading it thru. This also allows you to put and hold tension on your wire, so it doesnt sag.

[omegabrock]

Thanks mrs lady...the thought of buying a horse has made my wife incredibly excited about buying the house now haha. Now to convince her I need a chainsaw to put up this fence

[Innkeeper]

Thanks mrs lady...the thought of buying a horse has made my wife incredibly excited about buying the house now haha. Now to convince her I need a chainsaw to put up this fence

If you have a house you need a chainsaw, it is a rule. Just explain it to her or you can send her my way I will do it for you. :)

[Baglady]

Thanks mrs lady...the thought of buying a horse has made my wife incredibly excited about buying the house now haha. Now to convince her I need a chainsaw to put up this fencehahaha. No chainsaw required. A Post Driver, and good old fashioned muscles!
Although, cedar, or telephone pole corner posts are a good idea.
Gotta tell you, horses are herd animals. You really need more than one! They need company too. :bounce:

[omegabrock]

Yeah I was wondering if our mastiff would be good with that or another alternative to another horse. And I just want a chainsaw lol. I need one. Especially with the trees on the land

[Baglady]

Yeah I was wondering if our mastiff would be good with that or another alternative to another horse. And I just want a chainsaw lol. I need one. Especially with the trees on the landYeah I know, Boys and their toys...:) I do agree tho, a chainsaw is a must have. Hopefully your dog and horse will get along fine. It's about a 50/50 chance.

[omegabrock]

It's the horse I question. Our dog tends to be very laid back with other animals lol

[Baglady]

It's the horse I question. Our dog tends to be very laid back with other animals lolYou'll just have to wait and see. Most horses won't bother a dog, unless the dog is acting like an idiot. Sounds like you'll be ok with yours.