Vigilante Justice

[juskom95]

First, just as a CYA this isn't my condoning vigilante justice, but a thought consideration.

This article sparked some thought for me: https://townhall.com/tipsheet/leahbarkoukis/2020/06/03/mayor-condemns-vigilante-justice-after-small-business-owner-shoots-kills-looter-n2569966

I know in my area, I have seen local police diminishing in quality, not just their training, but in how they interact with the public and how they view/treat the public. It is very much an 'us versus them,' mentality, very demeaning to the locals.Then, with the COVID-19 panic, we get to see the police enact illegal EO's and overreach in areas. While most of these area are indeed Liberal/Leftist controlled one, we are seeing them in other locations as well.

KY is an example of this; LexMetro was responding to calls about illegal social gatherings and illegal business openings. This lowered their response times and meant that they were openly not responding to incidents like burglaries, robberies etc. The state police agency also enacted Beshear's illegal EO's to track church services etc. Now we see police responses to the riots across the country, my own local police are kneeling for protestors (this is very bad for many reasons) and we have LMPD turning off their body cameras when policing the protests and riots.

I state the above to raise the larger question: How long is the general public going to trust the police forces as a whole? Law enforcement can only act when the vast majority of the population of their area accepts and supports their authority. These riots are only a small portion of the population of an area, but even with that police are unable/unwilling to keep control, even the national guard faces issues without overall consent. Most police I know/knew do not understand the fundamental importance of consent.

What happens when the populace decides police are no longer capable of protecting their communities and decide to start enforcing their laws and morals? What will the tipping point be? This happens already in other countries, where police are corrupt and/or inept, the communities take justice into their own hands. Unlike many of those countries, the US is much better armed and I would argue much better trained as a whole.


Just my ramblings from my social isolation!

[hag]

That wasn't vigilante justice, that was self defense if the article was accurate....

[juskom95]

That wasn't vigilante justice, that was self defense if the article was accurate....

I agree, but the article started my thought process. Police are allowing rioters to act without stopping them, so if they're doing that . . . . what good are they?

[Innkeeper]

These Democrats are going to reap what they sow pretty soon if they aren't careful, but i don't think they realize what crops they planted.

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[Sarge7402]

First we need to make one thing clear, most of these places where the Police are allowing rioters to go unchecked are in Demo controled areas and they've had orders to stand down and not do the job they are paid to do which is to serve and protect.

As for turning off body cameras, most are only activated by the officer. So if a situation escalates rapidly they may not have had a chance to activate it. (the last department I ran we gave each officer a digital voice recorder capable of recording an 8 hour shift.

But you also have to understand regardless of what you believe, that officer in Minn was thrown under the bus by the PD and the DA to try and squelch riots before they started. Can you blame folks for not turning these camera's on if that's how you're going to be treated by your department. To my knowledge there has not been a MPD use of force investigation performed on this incident

[juskom95]

First we need to make one thing clear, most of these places where the Police are allowing rioters to go unchecked are in Demo controled areas and they've had orders to stand down and not do the job they are paid to do which is to serve and protect.
So? I'm done accepting that excuse, that is the "I'm just following orders," excuse and it is bull. How can an officer truly believe in their oath when they're watching their city burn or allowing protestors and/or rioters shut down businesses? I've taken that risk before and it almost landed me in jail (refusing an unlawful order) but most LEO's simply are not willing to do that, and more importantly their leader


As for turning off body cameras, most are only activated by the officer. So if a situation escalates rapidly they may not have had a chance to activate it. (the last department I ran we gave each officer a digital voice recorder capable of recording an 8 hour shift.
For LMPD, this isn't the first time and I know of a few (more than a few) state police who turn off their cameras when they pull over other officers, so they do not have to write tickets.


But you also have to understand regardless of what you believe, that officer in Minn was thrown under the bus by the PD and the DA to try and squelch riots before they started. Can you blame folks for not turning these camera's on if that's how you're going to be treated by your department. To my knowledge there has not been a MPD use of force investigation performed on this incident
Officers are quite often thrown under the bus, which contributes to the really good officers leaving, and those who remain being less inclined to act in a righteous and justified manner.

If this were one isolated incident, I would overall agree with you, but we've seen multiple departments stand down for riots in the past and we're seeing police departments enforce illegal/questionable EO's. This is a trend we're starting to see across the country, from standing down from riots, enforcing COVID-19 lockdowns etc

[Sarge7402]

Again Democrat mayors tend to hire demo chief's of police. Most have little or no intestinal fortitude. Also training of new officers tends to leave a whole lot to be desired.

My last academy was for our Department of Corrections. 6 weeks. most of the basics I got after completion back at my prison. Ethics/lawful/unlawful orders - what are those. Constitution - remember being in prison doesn't eliminate all of one's civil rights. Nada.

And an awful lot of folks this is only a job - nothing different than working for Wally World. Sad, but the good folks are not staying.

As for being thrown under the bus. Take it from me do what you honestly believe is right and being backed up by your watch commander and it go south and it's all down to the lowest man on the totem pole.

Expect we'll find out much later this year that this officer's charges will be dismissed. Fentanyl and meth are never a good combo in one's system

[juskom95]

Again Democrat mayors tend to hire demo chief's of police. Most have little or no intestinal fortitude. Also training of new officers tends to leave a whole lot to be desired.
I know it, and it is sad. A reason I'm working to get OUT of the city I'm in. It is going to happen, but not quite yet.


My last academy was for our Department of Corrections. 6 weeks. most of the basics I got after completion back at my prison. Ethics/lawful/unlawful orders - what are those. Constitution - remember being in prison doesn't eliminate all of one's civil rights. Nada.
I had some good leaders who made me understand the law, and not just blindly enforce something. They took their oaths seriously and it filtered down to me as well.


And an awful lot of folks this is only a job - nothing different than working for Wally World. Sad, but the good folks are not staying.
I talked to a few retired officers when we had the last drug dealer in the area, and that is essentially what he said. I heard it from more than one, the last one was a trainer as well and he didn't have anything positive to say about the local police.


As for being thrown under the bus. Take it from me do what you honestly believe is right and being backed up by your watch commander and it go south and it's all down to the lowest man on the totem pole.

Expect we'll find out much later this year that this officer's charges will be dismissed. Fentanyl and meth are never a good combo in one's system

The bus hurts, but sometimes you need to be able to look in the mirror. I think the officer's use of force was wrong and shows a need for better/more training, but from the autopsies right now it does not appear to have caused the death. Too many are in a hurry to assume and riot first, and not bother with the facts.

It isn't worth being an officer right now, and that is also contributing to the deterioration of the profession. Sad times.

[MountainGirl]

Now you can add this into the pile....

https://www.foxnews.com/us/black-lives-matter-plans-war-on-police-ny-leader-says

"The Black Lives Matter movement will develop an armed branch of “peace officers” to combat police brutality in black communities during the so-called “war on police,” according to one of its leaders."

****
making a new thread on this.

[Sarge7402]

First that's not going to go well for anyone.

Secondly, we tended to only go to their neighborhoods when they asked us to come.

Don't want us there don't call. Course your Momma or wife or baby momma may not see things the same way you do the next time youse go to beating on her

[Sparkyprep]

I think there is already a significant portion of our population that hasn't felt they could trust the police for a long time. How do you think all this crap started?

[juskom95]

I think there is already a significant portion of our population that hasn't felt they could trust the police for a long time. How do you think all this crap started?

The Left has always been hard anti-cop, but I'm starting to see the same sentiment from regular, not Leftist people; I'm one of them. I've been a staunch supporter of police for years, but watching them stand down for multiple riots (or chiefs supporting the rioters) and their thuggish behavior with COVID-19 . . . . I'm not convinced they are on the people's side, but are staunchly with the government. Or at least enough of them to make the point moot.

[shootbrownelk]

I agree, but the article started my thought process. Police are allowing rioters to act without stopping them, so if they're doing that . . . . what good are they?

The police these days are in the same league as the FBI, totally corrupt and worthless.

[shootbrownelk]

Again Democrat mayors tend to hire demo chief's of police. Most have little or no intestinal fortitude. Also training of new officers tends to leave a whole lot to be desired.

My last academy was for our Department of Corrections. 6 weeks. most of the basics I got after completion back at my prison. Ethics/lawful/unlawful orders - what are those. Constitution - remember being in prison doesn't eliminate all of one's civil rights. Nada.

And an awful lot of folks this is only a job - nothing different than working for Wally World. Sad, but the good folks are not staying.

As for being thrown under the bus. Take it from me do what you honestly believe is right and being backed up by your watch commander and it go south and it's all down to the lowest man on the totem pole.

Expect we'll find out much later this year that this officer's charges will be dismissed. Fentanyl and meth are never a good combo in one's system

I have to respectfully disagree with you Sarge. There is no way in hell that the kneeling cop will get off. Not now. If he does the resulting riots will make the ones today look peaceful in comparison. They'll move the riots out of the inner cities and many lives will be lost I'm afraid.

[Sarge7402]

You've got your right to your opinion. But where are you going to find and untainted jury pool - or for that matter four of them.

Nah city will offer blood money to the family, they'll see a bigger payday than old Georgie could have ever delivered and they'll be moving uptown with the Jeffersons

[juskom95]

There is no way in hell that the kneeling cop will get off.
1. Finding an untainted jury pool will be about impossible
2. Depends on the actual cause of death. Right now, it was the act of all three officers (according to the ME) and not the singular officer
3. Remember, it has to be a unanimous jury, without a doubt that all three officers caused his death.



Not now.
A guilty verdict to appeal the rioters is just as bad, or worse, than the officer not facing conviction.


If he does the resulting riots will make the ones today look peaceful in comparison. They'll move the riots out of the inner cities and many lives will be lost I'm afraid.
Wait until Trump wins in 2020.

[shootbrownelk]

You've got your right to your opinion. But where are you going to find and untainted jury pool - or for that matter four of them.

Nah city will offer blood money to the family, they'll see a bigger payday than old Georgie could have ever delivered and they'll be moving uptown with the Jeffersons

The family and their lawyer are already set, their "Go Fund Me" account was almost 20 million bucks the last time I checked. They be drivin' Escalades rollin' on 32's very soon. This is also Tax free moola from what I've read. Then there's the lawsuit against the city.

[Innkeeper]

The family and their lawyer are already set, their "Go Fund Me" account was almost 20 million bucks the last time I checked. They be drivin' Escalades rollin' on 32's very soon. This is also Tax free moola from what I've read. Then there's the lawsuit against the city.Have to keep their priorities straight.

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[MountainGirl]

I heard on the radio the other two cops holding him down had been on the job for 5 days, and that the kneeling cop was their trainer. Anybody know if that's right?