Small comms advice needed

[MountainGirl]

Here's the situation.

Need 2-way with 3 neighbors, all within 1/2 mile of us around the peaks as the raven flies (2 miles if driven, less if hiked).

There is no line-of-site but we've got a good high spot for an antenna? if that would help at all.

So walkie talkies? Old school CB's?

Thanks much for any suggestions you can give.

[juskom95]

Budget?
Redundancies?

I don't know ham very well, but I know a few hand-helds that don't require licenses.

[TJC44]

May be able to run with FRS or GMRS. They share some channels, difference is in power. Both are UHF short range. FRS are handheld with integrated antenna. You could go CB. Those are HF, AM modulated, which means they could be noisy on a bad day, but 5 watts may give you more range. FRS are FM. I'm guessing that no one in your group is licensed, or wish to get a license. There are also cell phone apps for "direct comm" but you still go thru the tower.

[MountainGirl]

Budget?
Redundancies?

I don't know ham very well, but I know a few hand-helds that don't require licenses.

Budget is whatever it takes to get what we want. Redundancies? None.
Not sure about the Ham route for this... but still open maybe if that's the only option.

[juskom95]

Budget is whatever it takes to get what we want. Redundancies? None.
Not sure about the Ham route for this... but still open maybe if that's the only option.

-Without line-of-sight, you're looking at UHF/VHF for any sort of range. GMRS/FRS will push maybe 2 miles in perfect conditions.
-If you're willing to invest iCom's with encryption chips will guarantee you silence, but they are in the UHF/VHF range; not cheap though, we used them on FOBs in Iraq.
-CB could be a way to go, but keep in mind those frequencies are %100 open and are often stepped on.

[MountainGirl]

May be able to run with FRS or GMRS. They share some channels, difference is in power. Both are UHF short range. FRS are handheld with integrated antenna. You could go CB. Those are HF, AM modulated, which means they could be noisy on a bad day, but 5 watts may give you more range. FRS are FM. I'm guessing that no one in your group is licensed, or wish to get a license. There are also cell phone apps for "direct comm" but you still go thru the tower.
You're right no one in the group will be getting a license. And the option of cell phone apps are out. This will be for when and if phone communications etc go down, or we choose to not use them.

I wonder if the 3 locations put up towers so that the tips of the towers were line of sight with each other, and if walkie talkies could be used in that manner. Is it even possible for a walkie talkie to bounce off something on the tower?

As you can tell I'm pretty clueless, lol.

[MountainGirl]

-Without line-of-sight, you're looking at UHF/VHF for any sort of range. GMRS/FRS will push maybe 2 miles in perfect conditions.
-If you're willing to invest iCom's with encryption chips will guarantee you silence, but they are in the UHF/VHF range; not cheap though, we used them on FOBs in Iraq.
-CB could be a way to go, but keep in mind those frequencies are %100 open and are often stepped on.

I appreciate your words, Juskom. Strangely, we're not that concerned with security so 100% open wouldn't be a problem; we just need to be able to communicate information quickly, if necessary.

[juskom95]

I appreciate your words, Juskom. Strangely, we're not that concerned with security so 100% open wouldn't be a problem; we just need to be able to communicate information quickly, if necessary.

Bear in mind, under the law, you do not need a license during an emergency situation. It is also legal to own the equipment, even have an antenna, without a license.

CB works, but you are range limited even with an antenna. You can also purchase a multiband system, capable of CB, UHF and VHF for options.

[TJC44]

You're right no one in the group will be getting a license. And the option of cell phone apps are out. This will be for when and if phone communications etc go down, or we choose to not use them.

I wonder if the 3 locations put up towers so that the tips of the towers were line of sight with each other, and if walkie talkies could be used in that manner. Is it even possible for a walkie talkie to bounce off something on the tower?

As you can tell I'm pretty clueless, lol.

Let me direct you to someone who can help. I've been talking with Nick Meacher for a few months now. He is good people, laid back. He works for Denver Emergency management by day, and by night he has been building up his website "Fortune Favors the Prepared" . Here is a link to his comms page.
https://fortunefavorstheprepared.com/preparedness-book-of-knowledge-2/communications/radio-services/

TJC

[OSFG]

I recommend CB's with base station at each house and mobile units or hand helds for traveling. Can buy amplifiers that will get you greater range. They operate right in the 30 MHz range and with the right antennas (which you can build using regular single strand wire elevated in a tree, you can really get out there. It will also get less absorbed into the earth and vegetation than higher VHF or UHF frequencies.

They are cheap, easily replaced, easily upgraded, and easy to install. Plus no license needed.

If you have availability to the peaks to put up a repeater then any of the VHF/UHF radios DMR radios could be used and give you more capability. At a greater price. and you would need batteries/solar panel to maintain them on.

HF frequencies 2-30MHz can be bounced off the F1/F2 layers of the Stratosphere in an umbrella like coverage zone for over 500 miles. Typically 2-12MHz during the night and upto 30MHz during the days (highly depends) and you just have to learn how to make simple two wire dipole antennas.

a 20 watt HF radio with an omni directional antenna can cover about 30 miles. Hand helds would be around 2 to 4 watts so that would cover roughly 2 to 4 miles. Terrain dependent.


So each house has a main HF radio, each car has a vehicular HF radio, and everyone carries hand held. Somebody should hear everyone and be able to relay to everyone else who can't hear them directly.

[MoreAmmoOK]

If you can establish line of sight WIFI could be an option. Point to point radios that can easily cover a couple miles would cost about <$250.00 each. Attach local omni radios to cover whatever area of each homestead desired.

[Inor]

I don't know what the hell this radio they gave me is. But it is the same Motorola hardware that our Sheriff's department and the Border Patrol use. The guy that gave us the radio knows this stuff and pre-programmed it with 3 channels. Channel 1 is "The Community Channel". It sends the signal to an antenna about 8 miles from M.T. Acres and the antenna broadcasts it to the other radios. That one seems to be good for about 20-30 miles and seems to even do pretty well when you get into the mountains.

Channel 1 also has the ability to do encryption. From talking to the guy, the encryption setup is pretty cool and really the only part of the conversation that I really understood. He used an algorithm that is a knock-off of the 256 bit PGP algorithm that is used on a lot of computer networks. But the cool part is he seeds the algorithm with a key that is automatically generated from atmospheric noise and the seed is regenerated every minute.

Channel 2 is just a radio-to-radio channel. It works, but only right in the valley and only has a range of a couple miles. Basically, it is a glorified walkie-talkie.

Channel 3 is some other channel that is set up for emergencies only (whatever that means).

The only other thing I know about it is you really do NOT want to let the battery get low! When the battery gets too low it starts playing this little electric tune that sounds like it was composed by a manically depressed Japanese guy! It started that about midnight the first night we got it. I damn near shit myself thinking the smoke alarm was trying to take over the house!

[Back Pack Hack]

Maybe something like wireless mesh communication systems such as GoTenna (https://gotenna.com/).

[MountainGirl]

If you can establish line of sight WIFI could be an option. Point to point radios that can easily cover a couple miles would cost about <$250.00 each. Attach local omni radios to cover whatever area of each homestead desired.

Hi MoreAmmo - Not sure how a WIFI setup would work without internet or cell service... what am I missing? Thanks!

[MountainGirl]

Maybe something like wireless mesh communication systems such as GoTenna (https://gotenna.com/).

Wow. I'll need to explore that site again; atm the mesh concept for this would take some thought. I recall some time back reading about a lost pet app that works on a similar idea. Thanks for the link, most appreciated

[MountainGirl]

I don't know what the hell this radio they gave me is. But it is the same Motorola hardware that our Sheriff's department and the Border Patrol use. The guy that gave us the radio knows this stuff and pre-programmed it with 3 channels. Channel 1 is "The Community Channel". It sends the signal to an antenna about 8 miles from M.T. Acres and the antenna broadcasts it to the other radios. That one seems to be good for about 20-30 miles and seems to even do pretty well when you get into the mountains.

Channel 1 also has the ability to do encryption. From talking to the guy, the encryption setup is pretty cool and really the only part of the conversation that I really understood. He used an algorithm that is a knock-off of the 256 bit PGP algorithm that is used on a lot of computer networks. But the cool part is he seeds the algorithm with a key that is automatically generated from atmospheric noise and the seed is regenerated every minute.

Channel 2 is just a radio-to-radio channel. It works, but only right in the valley and only has a range of a couple miles. Basically, it is a glorified walkie-talkie.

Channel 3 is some other channel that is set up for emergencies only (whatever that means).

The only other thing I know about it is you really do NOT want to let the battery get low! When the battery gets too low it starts playing this little electric tune that sounds like it was composed by a manically depressed Japanese guy! It started that about midnight the first night we got it. I damn near shit myself thinking the smoke alarm was trying to take over the house!

ROFL!! Who needs Alexa when a smoke alarm will do!

Sounds like you really got hooked up there; not only with the radio but with all the Galts. I re-read an old thread of mine (What's the best way to listen?) and we've really changed our thinking about 'listening only' and handling everything solo. We've established really good relationships with two of our neighbors and I can see where it'll be beneficial to act/react with help. We won't be nearly as setup as Mt Acres, but that's okay and I'm glad you got invited to jump down the rabbit hole. :)

[MountainGirl]

I recommend CB's with base station at each house and mobile units or hand helds for traveling. Can buy amplifiers that will get you greater range. They operate right in the 30 MHz range and with the right antennas (which you can build using regular single strand wire elevated in a tree, you can really get out there. It will also get less absorbed into the earth and vegetation than higher VHF or UHF frequencies.

They are cheap, easily replaced, easily upgraded, and easy to install. Plus no license needed.

....

So each house has a main HF radio, each car has a vehicular HF radio, and everyone carries hand held. Somebody should hear everyone and be able to relay to everyone else who can't hear them directly.
This is probably what we'll end up doing. Thank you :)

Tom ordered a couple of cheapie pre-owned Motorola TA280s off the net tonight, for us to play around with up here, it'll be interesting to see how far apart we can be and still connect. Hell, I'd be happy just having a way to connect with the backside of our own Mountain LOL.

[MountainGirl]

Love you guys for helping me. Just sayin.

[juskom95]

Hi MoreAmmo - Not sure how a WIFI setup would work without internet or cell service... what am I missing? Thanks!

Computer network, depending on your needs/desires. I know with some work, you can get a few miles out of wifi.

[MountainGirl]

Computer network, depending on your needs/desires. I know with some work, you can get a few miles out of wifi.

So... a completely stand alone offline computer can still send out wifi?
Huh. Didn't know that.
Told ya I'm clueless, lol.

[Back Pack Hack]

An Aldis lamp might work as well. :callme:

[RubberDuck]

There about 5 frequencies that are no license required and with the right antenna more than capable of the range needed also keep in mind during a emergency no license is required on any frequencies.
We have the baofeng uv5r not overly complicated and many antenna options

Sent from my SM-G781V using Tapatalk

[MountainGirl]

An Aldis lamp might work as well. :callme:

Yeah, I'm considering homing pigeons as well. Or falcons. They would be cool.

Of course there's always this :D

12739

[MoreAmmoOK]

So... a completely stand alone offline computer can still send out wifi?
Huh. Didn't know that.
Told ya I'm clueless, lol.

You would just create your own network, a kinda mini "Internet". Ubiquity, http://www.ui.com has good and reasonably priced hardware for creating WIFI networks.

[MountainGirl]

You would just create your own network, a kinda mini "Internet". Ubiquity, http://www.ui.com has good and reasonably priced hardware for creating WIFI networks.

Right, it's the distances involved that surprises me. I'll check out that link for sure. Thanks!

[MountainGirl]

You would just create your own network, a kinda mini "Internet". Ubiquity, http://www.ui.com has good and reasonably priced hardware for creating WIFI networks.

I checked out the UI site...and the penny finally dropped lol. I'm gonna go explore the GoTenna site again - I don't know if we can do this without line of sight but who knows at this point. Thanks again, friend!

[MoreAmmoOK]

I checked out the UI site...and the penny finally dropped lol. I'm gonna go explore the GoTenna site again - I don't know if we can do this without line of sight but who knows at this point. Thanks again, friend!

WIFI won't work without line of site but one radio has to be visible to at least one other, two if it is in the middle of a chain. With the proper app you can use your phone over the network to make calls or send messages. You could also communicate PC to PC, share data, and if someone was ambitious they could set up a local email server.

Using regular radios would be more plug-n-play and would have the benefit of receiving communication from outside the network.
I don't know much about radio but I do know networking and WIFI and have most of the necessary hardware in place to create a WIFI network that can cover about 10 acres.

[Back Pack Hack]

Why not a simple GMRS license? I think that's just filling out a form and plunking down $70 to get the Kings' Permission to use.

[MountainGirl]

WIFI won't work without line of site but one radio has to be visible to at least one other, two if it is in the middle of a chain. With the proper app you can use your phone over the network to make calls or send messages. You could also communicate PC to PC, share data, and if someone was ambitious they could set up a local email server.

Using regular radios would be more plug-n-play and would have the benefit of receiving communication from outside the network.
I don't know much about radio but I do know networking and WIFI and have most of the necessary hardware in place to create a WIFI network that can cover about 10 acres.

There would be no line of sight up here. Hmmm...

Small favor?
Would you (or anyone!) check out this link? While researching the GoTenna mesh comms thing, I found this:

https://www.allhomerobotics.com/gotenna-mesh-vs-beartooth/#:~:text=The%20goTenna%20Mesh%20has%20a,0.8%20kilo meters%20in%20dense%20areas.

I haven't looked at Beartooth yet, but if it has anywhere near the range it claims - it might be the simplest solution for us.

Thanks again for all your help MoreAmmo, very much appreciated.

[MountainGirl]

Why not a simple GMRS license? I think that's just filling out a form and plunking down $70 to get the Kings' Permission to use.

Because...I don't ask for permission to do anything, especially from Kings.

[Back Pack Hack]

Because...I don't ask for permission to do anything, especially from Kings.

Then just use ham radios with whatever wattage of amps you need to get the job done.

Which begs the question: Why did you even ask?

[MoreAmmoOK]

They both appear to be glorified walkie talkies. I would think their range in a mountainous area would be limited, unless you were at the top of the mountain. Mountains tend to block virtually all radio waves. Antenna/repeater on top of the mountain or several that form a chain around it is about the only solution.

[juskom95]

Right, it's the distances involved that surprises me. I'll check out that link for sure. Thanks!

For commercial, I've used MikroTik point-to-point antenna's.

For jury-rigging, you can take a wifi antenna and mount it on a DirectTV dish as well.

There can be some instances where computer communication is helpful, sharing things like CCTV, documents etc.

[MountainGirl]

Then just use ham radios with whatever wattage of amps you need to get the job done.

Which begs the question: Why did you even ask?

Why did I even ask what? People here for ideas and suggestions?

[hawgrider]

Which begs the question: Why did you even ask?

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcS6txvFPDjzgPaa01C7m80obexsWVV 5SQbuLg&usqp=CAU


https://img.memecdn.com/well-then_o_836623.jpg

[MountainGirl]

They both appear to be glorified walkie talkies. I would think their range in a mountainous area would be limited, unless you were at the top of the mountain. Mountains tend to block virtually all radio waves. Antenna/repeater on top of the mountain or several that form a chain around it is about the only solution.

Right. I noticed in both of their marketing vids the users were way up high somewhere; even in the city public areas the person was talking off of a balcony LOL.

Sigh...I need some carrier falcons.
12740

[juskom95]

Right. I noticed in both of their marketing vids the users were way up high somewhere; even in the city public areas the person was talking off of a balcony LOL.

Sigh...I need some carrier falcons.
12740

Line-Of-Sight is going to be your problem, just like it has been for ages with radio waves. If you're looking to get around it your options are really just: tall antenna's, repeaters, smoke signals.

[MountainGirl]

Line-Of-Sight is going to be your problem, just like it has been for ages with radio waves. If you're looking to get around it your options are really just: tall antenna's, repeaters, smoke signals.

If we put an antenna on our highest spot, there are no mountains between us and the two neighbors (one above us in elevation, one below us) and would be above the ridges between all of us; only barrier would be lots of tall trees - but maybe it would work with 3 home base CBs. Especially if the high neighbor runs up some wire.

[MoreAmmoOK]

An antenna/repeater at your place should allow communication between all three site. Keep in mind that lower frequencies penetrate trees, rain, and structures better than higher frequencies but lower frequencies may have more noise(static). Think the difference between AM, lower frequency but more static than higher frequency FM.
That's one issue with WIFI, it's rather high frequency has poor penetration compared to lower frequency communication bands.

[OSFG]

This is probably what we'll end up doing. Thank you :)

Tom ordered a couple of cheapie pre-owned Motorola TA280s off the net tonight, for us to play around with up here, it'll be interesting to see how far apart we can be and still connect. Hell, I'd be happy just having a way to connect with the backside of our own Mountain LOL.

I can tell you, having tested these out in the open... you get about 3/4 mile (here on the east coast)... where you are maybe further. they operate at the 462 MHz and 467 MHz, That UHF. good for unobstructed line of sight....crap for penetrating buildings and vegetation.

[Gambit]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5e3be1f585321276043bb5b5671383c8/tenor.gif?itemid=9315016

[MountainGirl]

I can tell you, having tested these out in the open... you get about 3/4 mile (here on the east coast)... where you are maybe further. they operate at the 462 MHz and 467 MHz, That UHF. good for unobstructed line of sight....crap for penetrating buildings and vegetation.

Probably a safe bet they won't penetrate a granite mountain then. Oh well, we can play with them around here on this side, and for sure down at the lake. :)

Any recommendations for a CB base station?

[MountainGirl]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/5e3be1f585321276043bb5b5671383c8/tenor.gif?itemid=9315016

Brilliant!!
But it'd start a forest fire with all the wood you'd go through.