Cryptocurrency

[Inor]

I am not a big fan of cryptocurrencies. But as things continue to spiral out of control with the dollar, it seems like now would be a good time to move some assets out of U.S. Dollars and into something else.

Although I understand the gold and silver markets much more than crypto, I want to have more liquidity than physical gold and silver can offer right now.

I certainly do not understand crypto as well as I would like before starting to invest but I think we need to get started sooner rather than later. The little bit of study I have done makes me think I need to do the self-custodian thing with it rather than set up an account with Coinbase or similar company. Having a traditional account with a company like Coinbase means the government can audit or freeze that account (like Canada did with the truckers). They can also collect information about me from the account. With the self-custodian option, I would either need to set up a software wallet on a phone or PC or purchase a hardware wallet device. But it also means I can maintain complete anonymity after I have made a purchase and moved the assets to my wallet. Purchasing anything with it would be completely anonymous. I am leaning towards the hardware wallet device since it is the most secure and offers the most privacy.

Buying an asset that is backed by the full faith and credit of literally nothing is only marginally better than keeping dollars backed by the full faith and credit of the United States government.

I am thinking of just buying a small amount on a monthly basis, something like $500 per month and just dollar cost average it over time rather than trying to time the wild swings in the market. I am also thinking of sticking with just the well known ones like Etherium or Bitcoin rather than trying to figure out the details of the thousands of others out there.

Any ideas or advice any of you all could offer would be most appreciated.

[Dwight55]

Got a back yard and some quart jars ???

I may be wrong . . . but cryptocurrency has always seemed to be the half brother of a ponzi scheme . . . and at any given time . . . some computer nerd somewhere can just turn the lights off in the bunk house . . . and it is done . . . all the investors have are memories.

And unless it pays some unreal dividends or interest . . . it might just as well be in the back yard.

Call me old fashioned . . . but I have almost done the quart jar thing . . . have it set up a bit different . . . and short of pulling out my fingernails so I tell you where it is . . . nobody can do anything to "relieve" me of my assets.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Slippy]

Bears some investigation, Inor.

Being brutally honest, I have no understanding of this cryptocurrency sorcery thing.

Edit; Arguably, the best investment today may be canned food goods!

[rstanek]

FYI, last year I tried crypto, I invested $1200.00 in Dogecoin. My payback was just over $11000.00. But it don’t always work that way. I see investing in the stock market or crypto as the same as gambling, never invest more than you are willing to lose…..

[MountainGirl]

If you want to cash out - how do you get your money out of crypto?

(For some reason, 'Hotel California' keeps running through my mind...)

[rstanek]

I use Robinhood, cash it out and deposit it back to your bank….

[MountainGirl]

I use Robinhood, cash it out and deposit it back to your bank….

So, if you buy a 'coin' from Robinhood - and it increases in value - you can sell it back to Robinhood for cash. Yes?
What's in it for Robinhood then? They charge you per transaction, etc? They want their coins back to re-sell?

[Prepared One]

I know nothing about Cryptocurrency, not that I know all that much more about the dollar and investing in general. Right now? I am investing in land, ( East Texas ) canned goods, food and bullets. I have a feeling we are going to need those commodities in the next few months more then a few dollar bills.

[rstanek]

There cost is built into the transaction, if for example you cash in $5000.00, they take about $10.00, this is approximate. I don’t have an issue with this procedure because your cost is negligible, though understand they are a business and need to make a profit just like anyone else. You only pay when you buy or sell. Unlike many other brokers, you pay monthly whether you trade or not…..when you invest,you also are taken a risk…..

[MountainGirl]

There cost is built into the transaction, if for example you cash in $5000.00, they take about $10.00, this is approximate. I don’t have an issue with this procedure because your cost is negligible, though understand they are a business and need to make a profit just like anyone else. You only pay when you buy or sell. Unlike many other brokers, you pay monthly whether you trade or not…..when you invest,you also are taken a risk…..

I understand re the risk, and I'm all for them making a profit - it's the American way, yes?

The process is something I dont need to understand fully; the things I'd want to know are:

1. Is the $9800 you made last year considered taxable income if you withdraw it? If not, how do you account for the cash if you are IRS audited?
2. If you don't convert the $9800 back to cash, and just leave it in 'coin' to grow even more, does it count as realized gains for reporting purposes?

My info is a little out of date, but last I knew the Brandon administration is launching an assault to suck more taxes out via 1) the end of inherited 'stepped-up valuations' re estates; and 2) unrealized gains in 401k plans (whether withdrawn or not). I can't see the gov't not finding a way to attach a tax basis - even on self-custodian options. Yes, there might be better privacy with those - and a way to hide profits - but unless you always leave the asset in the crypto world you're back on their radar.

I like that cryptocurrency is kind of a 'fk you' to the 'man' - but as long as you're still using a commodity for income purposes - there's still a tie-in to the system. Which is fine, if you're fine with that. :thumb: For me, I prefer tangible assets, that are not subject to gov't monitoring, controlling, regulating or taxing. :cool:

[rstanek]

Last year I took a loss on some stock at which time you can take as a deduction, and yes, I had to include y crypto profits into my overall income. And if you reinvest, you have to still pay the tax unless you lose it before the end of the fore mentioned tax year……I hope that helps to understand….Robinhood does send you 1099s for profits and losses….which I can download directly into my TurboTax software…..

[BucketBack]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JITC1fo2HA&t=19s

[Jester-ND]

if want something tangible to invest (stash away) in, why opt with a digital asset? could just as well buy NFT's. ever consider fine art? graded mickey mantle/michael Jordan RC's? meteorites? autographs? 1st edition books? vintage clothing, pokemon cards, shoes, banksy graffiti..... all things I would consider holding over digital assets. Even when an all digital currency is forced upon us, these items will have value.

[MountainGirl]

if want something tangible to invest (stash away) in, why opt with a digital asset? could just as well buy NFT's. ever consider fine art? graded mickey mantle/michael Jordan RC's? meteorites? autographs? 1st edition books? vintage clothing, pokemon cards, shoes, banksy graffiti..... all things I would consider holding over digital assets. Even when an all digital currency is forced upon us, these items will have value.

NFT's are tangible assets?? You can hold them in your hand??
(I'm a big believer in *digital poof*. Your mileage may vary LOL)
I'm not looking for 'stuff' to invest in... and even cash is worthless to me, and needs to convert quickly into land, short-term and long-term preps, and things that go bang or makes them go bang. :)

[MountainGirl]

Last year I took a loss on some stock at which time you can take as a deduction, and yes, I had to include y crypto profits into my overall income. And if you reinvest, you have to still pay the tax unless you lose it before the end of the fore mentioned tax year……I hope that helps to understand….Robinhood does send you 1099s for profits and losses….which I can download directly into my TurboTax software…..

It did help a LOT sweet friend, thank you.
I hope at some point you can pay your taxes with crypto. If you're going to play in the tenuous - the gov't should have to as well.
The end of "cash" is in sight - in favor of all digital transactions - but that is something way different than this.
Thanks again.

[Inor]

Bears some investigation, Inor.

Being brutally honest, I have no understanding of this cryptocurrency sorcery thing.

Edit; Arguably, the best investment today may be canned food goods!


FYI, last year I tried crypto, I invested $1200.00 in Dogecoin. My payback was just over $11000.00. But it don’t always work that way. I see investing in the stock market or crypto as the same as gambling, never invest more than you are willing to lose…..


I am not really looking at it as an "investment" per se... I just do not understand it well enough to really trade it looking for returns. (If that happens great, but that is not my primary reason for doing this.) I am starting to see some small businesses around here that will take payment in Bitcoin and Etherium for goods and services. So trade would be my primary reason for buying it in the first place.

That is also why I would need to be a self-custodian of it rather than using something like Robinhood or Coinbase and letting them be the custodian. I want to try and destroy the gubmint "paper trail". Once I move it from whomever I bought it from into a local wallet, there is no way for the gubmint to track it or tax it.

Basically, I am thinking of using it the same way I would use gold and silver except my local businesses will accept Bitcoin and will not accept silver in payment. That is also why I do not want to put a lot of money into it (until I understand it better). I.E. Piss on the gubmint and their worthless Federal Reserve Notes, this is a possible off-ramp!

[MountainGirl]

I am not really looking at it as an "investment" per se... I just do not understand it well enough to really trade it looking for returns. (If that happens great, but that is not my primary reason for doing this.) I am starting to see some small businesses around here that will take payment in Bitcoin and Etherium for goods and services. So trade would be my primary reason for buying it in the first place.

That is also why I would need to be a self-custodian of it rather than using something like Robinhood or Coinbase and letting them be the custodian. I want to try and destroy the gubmint "paper trail". Once I move it from whomever I bought it from into a local wallet, there is no way for the gubmint to track it or tax it.

Basically, I am thinking of using it the same way I would use gold and silver except my local businesses will accept Bitcoin and will not accept silver in payment. That is also why I do not want to put a lot of money into it (until I understand it better). I.E. Piss on the gubmint and their worthless Federal Reserve Notes, this is a possible off-ramp!

Inor, I appreciate your exploration of this in here.
I wonder what kind of 'reporting' your local businesses are required to do... as in 'who' bought their goods/services with 'gov-untrackable' coin. Assuredly, they'll need to report their income... and might not be willing to accept 'under the table' transactions... unless they're bootlegging it also. LOL

Slight tangent: The 'self-custodian' thing, from my read, reminds me of when mom had investments at SmithBarney - and she had to approve various major purchases. Over time, they wanted her to end that set up so they could make all the 'buy' decisions without her knowledge/approval. She pulled her money out. She was a 'self-custodian' kind of woman, herself. :)

[rstanek]

I recommend starting out small, like maybe $100.00, play around with it until you get to know the landscape, if you wish to go with Robinhood, PM me you’re email, I will send you an invite, doing so we will each receive 1 free stock…..

[Jester-ND]

NFT's are tangible assets?? You can hold them in your hand??
(I'm a big believer in *digital poof*. Your mileage may vary LOL)
I'm not looking for 'stuff' to invest in... and even cash is worthless to me, and needs to convert quickly into land, short-term and long-term preps, and things that go bang or makes them go bang. :)

I said could just as well buy NFT's... meaning may as well... they the same thing essentially as crypto

[Jester-ND]

I tend to think anything of tangible value will still be of value to a pawn shop (the world's 2nd oldest profession) after they switch to a digital currency. That being said.. I would rather hold a 1952 Bowman Mickey Mantle than Bitcoin.

[MountainGirl]

I tend to think anything of tangible value will still be of value to a pawn shop (the world's 2nd oldest profession) after they switch to a digital currency. That being said.. I would rather hold a 1952 Bowman Mickey Mantle than Bitcoin.

Me too! We Neanderthals are gonna keep the real world going, huh. :biglaugh:

[Inor]

I tend to think anything of tangible value will still be of value to a pawn shop (the world's 2nd oldest profession) after they switch to a digital currency. That being said.. I would rather hold a 1952 Bowman Mickey Mantle than Bitcoin.

I would prefer to hold a Mickey Mantle card than a Bitcoin as well. But my local feed mill will accept a Bitcoin as payment, they will not accept the Mickey Mantle. Again, the point is not to hold it or use it as an investment. It is to use it strictly for trade without the government interference.

[Inor]

Inor, I appreciate your exploration of this in here.
I wonder what kind of 'reporting' your local businesses are required to do... as in 'who' bought their goods/services with 'gov-untrackable' coin. Assuredly, they'll need to report their income... and might not be willing to accept 'under the table' transactions... unless they're bootlegging it also. LOL

Of course, businesses are "required" to report it as income. Whether they actually do or not is strictly between the business and the gubmint. If I were the business owner, I would tell the gubmint to PROVE the transaction even happened. But that's just me...

[Jester-ND]

your feedmill may not... but the owner of it may, or salesman might...... the pawn shop will.. Believing that government won't interfere with digital currency in the future (when they likely push for all digital) is a tad naive, all the more reason to have a diversified portfolio of tangible barter items. If you want the ability to trade off the radar, that is a barter system . i.e a 1952 mantle traded to the salesman, who uses his crypto to buy the items you are trying to.. all off the books.

[Jester-ND]

Gold, gems, Baseball cards, cars, jewelry, Digital coins, silver tea sets, green backs.... all share a belief in intrinsic value. The Nazis pillaged museums and houses of fine art with the same belief!

My belief is that:
1. I want to stock up on things I cannot reproduce (matches, lighters, hard to harvest seeds, potatoes, boots, tools etc.)
2. I want to stock up on things I can easily produce/buy now and convert into other things of use (wax, seeds, clothes, canning lids/jars, ammo, etc.)
3. I fully expect many of my things I value now can instantly be worthless (money, gold, autographs, cars, crypto)
4. I fully expect many of the things I have now that I don't value can instantly become priceless (time, freedom, hot showers, medicine, A/C, power etc.)
5. with those expectations I put much of my "investments" into tangible things I will need for entertainment when everything else is useless (books, board games, card games, future birthday/Christmas presents for my kids ( I do have many stockpiled) etc)

[MountainGirl]

Of course, businesses are "required" to report it as income. Whether they actually do or not is strictly between the business and the gubmint. If I were the business owner, I would tell the gubmint to PROVE the transaction even happened. But that's just me...

Of course they're required to report income. But my point was - will they also be required to report it "from whom".
IRS decides on reporting requirements... and they sure don't like work arounds. Crypto especially, would be my guess.

[rstanek]

Income from crypto is reported on a 1099 from your broker for whom pays you…..I don’t know how a broker reports income and losses, doesn’t matter to me as long as my ass is covered

[MountainGirl]

Income from crypto is reported on a 1099 from your broker for whom pays you…..I don’t know how a broker reports income and losses, doesn’t matter to me as long as my ass is covered

Yeah... I bet you color inside the lines too! :mocking:

It'd probably take a business owner who accepts bitcoin to answer my questions about if the IRS requires them to keep records re the source of any particular crypto payment, etc. I was surprised to learn 1099's were sent out, or that 'brokers' and 'stock' are part of the whole thing. My impression of the crypto-world was much more dark and sinister LOL but the more I learn the more it smells like just another commodity to be traded... without the benefit of a tangible company/business/etc to be accountable towards maintaining value. Hmm.. I guess that is kinda sinister if you think about it. And daring! :D

[TJC44]

I would prefer to hold a Mickey Mantle card than a Bitcoin as well. But my local feed mill will accept a Bitcoin as payment, they will not accept the Mickey Mantle. Again, the point is not to hold it or use it as an investment. It is to use it strictly for trade without the government interference.

Inor,
What I've learned about crypto is:
Moving, or trading crypto is done via a "tag", a digital address that the crypto is sent to,similiar to an email address or an IP address. This can be done directly from your wallet without involving a broker. For the initial buy-in, there are, literally, hundreds of exchanges you can access directly, without a broker. Be careful which one you pick though, some do not like dealing with US customers. Some also let you into the exchange, and trade freely, but then charge an arm and a leg to take the coin OUT of the exchange.
Then there is mining. Some people mine the coins, and either put them into a pool, sell them on an exchange, or offer them for sale "over the counter" I think Discord is popular forum for a variety of coins. As far as coins go, I know Bitcoin and Ethereum are the 2 big dogs of crypto, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of coins to choose from. The next few years are going to be a wild ride for crypto.
Back to the mining. I don't know how thoroughly mined Bitcoin is, you'd have to do some research on that. But you could dedicate a computer to mining, drop the coin in a wallet, sell it on an exchange for Bitcoin, or whatever you wish, drop that into a wallet (if they let you withdraw it), and then trade it to someone for tangible goods. Yes, it's possible.
Good luck, keep us updated.
TJC

[Inor]

Of course they're required to report income. But my point was - will they also be required to report it "from whom".
IRS decides on reporting requirements... and they sure don't like work arounds. Crypto especially, would be my guess.

So far... No. So far, there is no way to associate the address of a private wallet to an actual person. I can see that happening at some time in the future but hopefully by then, we will have another work-around.

I have been very loosely following crypto for over a year just because I think it is going become more important in the computer biz in the not-too-distant future. Not so much as a currency but more as an electronic contract. The whole idea of using it as a currency seems more like a side benefit to me right now. Anyway, since I broke my ankle I have had nothing but time on my hands and I read a thing from the World Economic Forum. They absolutely HATE everything about crypto! That got me to thinking, anything the WEF hates, I need to at least understand, if not fully embrace.

About the same time, my feed mill, one of the local diners that Mrs Inor and I frequent and the hardware store in the next town over all started accepting it for transactions. So I think I am at least going to try it out as a medium of exchange for a few months, NOT an investment. I doubt I will save much, if any, money, but if it works to buy the stuff we buy anyway and maintain some anonymity...

[Inor]

Inor,
What I've learned about crypto is:
Moving, or trading crypto is done via a "tag", a digital address that the crypto is sent to,similiar to an email address or an IP address. This can be done directly from your wallet without involving a broker. For the initial buy-in, there are, literally, hundreds of exchanges you can access directly, without a broker. Be careful which one you pick though, some do not like dealing with US customers. Some also let you into the exchange, and trade freely, but then charge an arm and a leg to take the coin OUT of the exchange.
Then there is mining. Some people mine the coins, and either put them into a pool, sell them on an exchange, or offer them for sale "over the counter" I think Discord is popular forum for a variety of coins. As far as coins go, I know Bitcoin and Ethereum are the 2 big dogs of crypto, but there are hundreds, if not thousands of coins to choose from. The next few years are going to be a wild ride for crypto.
Back to the mining. I don't know how thoroughly mined Bitcoin is, you'd have to do some research on that. But you could dedicate a computer to mining, drop the coin in a wallet, sell it on an exchange for Bitcoin, or whatever you wish, drop that into a wallet (if they let you withdraw it), and then trade it to someone for tangible goods. Yes, it's possible.
Good luck, keep us updated.
TJC

The "high water mark" exchange I am currently looking at is: https://uphold.com/

They appear to have about the best fee structure of any that I have seen thus far. They do not offer nearly as many type of coins as other exchanges, but I do not care much about that since using them in place of cash is going to require me stick with the top 3-4 coins anyway. But I still have several more exchanges that I want to look at.

Setting up a miner is CRAZY expensive for BTC and ETH since they both require (or soon will require in the case of ETH) a dedicated hardware miner and those are ridiculously expensive. Also, I am not really looking at it as a way to make money. Rather, I am just thinking of it as the next level of dropping out of "the system" but still being able to buy and sell things without having to resort to barter.

I am even going back and forth on whether I want to worry about buying the secure USB device to store it right now as I do not expect to keep more than $500-$1000 in the wallet for the first several months at least. There are open-source software wallets that I could put on my phone or laptop for free that would let me do everything I want to do initially.

The primary motivation for the whole idea is privacy and liquidity.

[Jester-ND]

aaaand just like that! the govt. going to get some of your secret pie...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/biden-preparing-sign-executive-order-141553985.html

[MountainGirl]

aaaand just like that! the govt. going to get some of your secret pie...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/biden-preparing-sign-executive-order-141553985.html

You can run... but you can't hide.

[Inor]

Some really good points on using Bitcoin as an exchange medium (not an investment) - positive and negative.

https://rumble.com/vx4fep-the-canadian-government-couldnt-stop-bitcoin.html

[TJC44]

aaaand just like that! the govt. going to get some of your secret pie...

https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/biden-preparing-sign-executive-order-141553985.html

What the .gov is worried about, is that they can't DO shit about crypto. It's de-centralized for just that reason. There are too many coins, too many exchanges to trade on, in the US and offshore.

3 other facts about crypto:
If you have a personal wallet, you can unplug that wallet from the internet, and only connect when you are going to send or receive.

Coin cannot be "pulled" from a wallet, it can only be pushed to a particular receiving tag by the sender.

I read somewhere that a coin's blockchain is so complex, it would require a quantum computer to break it.

Can a coin be forged? I don't know. I don't know enough about the blockchain myself to be able to answer that. It would PROBABLY require the above quantum computer to do it.

I know of at least 1 coin, there are probably more, that uses a quantum-proof algorithm for encryption & addressing.

The .gov may be able to force the US based brokers to report sales, but if you are trading 1 to 1, or through an offshore exchange, and you keep your wallet offline, they can't do squat. And if you deal in a less common coin, that just makes it fuzzier.

[MountainGirl]

What the .gov is worried about, is that they can't DO shit about crypto. It's de-centralized for just that reason. There are too many coins, too many exchanges to trade on, in the US and offshore.

3 other facts about crypto:
If you have a personal wallet, you can unplug that wallet from the internet, and only connect when you are going to send or receive.

Coin cannot be "pulled" from a wallet, it can only be pushed to a particular receiving tag by the sender.

I read somewhere that a coin's blockchain is so complex, it would require a quantum computer to break it.

Can a coin be forged? I don't know. I don't know enough about the blockchain myself to be able to answer that. It would PROBABLY require the above quantum computer to do it.

I know of at least 1 coin, there are probably more, that uses a quantum-proof algorithm for encryption & addressing.

The .gov may be able to force the US based brokers to report sales, but if you are trading 1 to 1, or through an offshore exchange, and you keep your wallet offline, they can't do squat. And if you deal in a less common coin, that just makes it fuzzier.

Thanks TJC - the more I hear about it the more I like it.

My only hesitation, so far, is IF retailers will eventually be required to report which customer bought something with bitcoin... unless the crypto-payment itself occurs without source identification (whether it's from a broker or self-managed wallet). IF it is totally anonymous, between customer and store keeper, then the only drawback would be if the internet itself goes *poof*. And if that happens... losing wealth would be the least of your problems.

[hawgrider]

Since Biden put his hand on this crap the other day they are now pushing this cryptic bit coin crap hard on TV commercials.

Hawg sees them pushing this so hard you will never hold a Franklin in your hand again. Eliminating cash! I hate this ****ing tech shit.

I still pay my bills with check and I still stash cash! Somebody stop the planet I want to jump off!

[1skrewsloose]

My brother and I were talking about this stuff last week. Are/will they (the US gov) declare all paper money that is legal tender for all debts public and private null and void? Just wondering how they could even think about getting away with that.

I stash cash and pay for stuff with checks too.

[TJC44]

IMHO, the Fed would not turn to a crypto coin. They would not be able to track where they went, like cash now.
It would be more likely to go to a digital dollar, still stored in banks, MAYBE adding a tracking capability.
But my guess is that THAT would be 10 years down the road. if that.

[hawgrider]

My brother and I were talking about this stuff last week. Are/will they (the US gov) declare all paper money that is legal tender for all debts public and private null and void? Just wondering how they could even think about getting away with that.

I stash cash and pay for stuff with checks too.

They are already pushing it on the news. Soon you will never have anything in your pocket but a kill shot card and a smart phone.

[hawgrider]

IMHO, the Fed would not turn to a crypto coin. They would not be able to track where they went, like cash now.
It would be more likely to go to a digital dollar, still stored in banks, MAYBE adding a tracking capability.
But my guess is that THAT would be 10 years down the road. if that.

Isn't that what biden just did with his execution order?
More laws coming....

[TJC44]

Thanks TJC - the more I hear about it the more I like it.

My only hesitation, so far, is IF retailers will eventually be required to report which customer bought something with bitcoin... unless the crypto-payment itself occurs without source identification (whether it's from a broker or self-managed wallet). IF it is totally anonymous, between customer and store keeper, then the only drawback would be if the internet itself goes *poof*. And if that happens... losing wealth would be the least of your problems.

A transaction requires the recipient of the coin to provide the sender with the tag where he wants the coin placed. It may or may not be his wallet, or broker account, or Timbuktu. Then the sender puts the tag (address) in his wallet/account, along with the amount (connected to the 'net), and *poof* away it goes, and as long as the sender provided the CORRECT tag, it shows up in his account/wallet.

Reporting would be the seller's issue. And how thorough his bookkeeping is. I remember a lady back when I was a kid that ran a food stand. Burgers, hot dogs, drinks, candy. She never had a cash register. added up all her transaction with pencil & paper. Miss that place.

[Inor]

I set up a free-ware wallet on the phone that I de-Googled a few months back and did my first two transactions with it Friday. (I wrote a post about the whole process of de-Googling the phone a few months ago). So, here are my thoughts about the experience...

1 - Setting the whole thing up was a pain in the ass. It was made doubly so because I really did not know what I was doing or where this whole process was going to lead, so I was unsure if I "was doing it right". That said, once I got an account set up to buy the Bitcoin and got the wallet set up and got the broker account linked to my wallet, everything else worked easily. And since the setup only has to be done once, moving forward does not seem like it will be an issue at all.

2 - Making purchases with it is insanely easy. Both merchants just had a QR code that I scanned, then entered the amount to transfer and hit the Transfer button. It was actually easier and faster than paying with my check card.

3 - I have not set up my de-Googled phone with a wireless provider yet. So I did have to log into the wireless network for each merchant to be able to do the transfer. That was not an issue in these cases because both merchants know me, but I will have to get a wireless provider for the phone before I try to use it in Tucson.

4 - With these two purchases I even saved quite a bit by paying in Bitcoin because the market moved in my favor between the time I bought it last Wednesday night and Friday when I used it. But I am still figuring over the course of a year, it will not save me much (if any) money.

5 - I still have to set up a means to back up the data on my de-Googled phone. That should be pretty easy to do since I have several secure Unix servers running here. I can just set up a nightly job to run on the phone to back it up to one of the servers.

I am not ready to dive in head first yet, but overall I am really happy with how this whole project is working out. There are even several services that will allow me to pay for transactions through the Visa network with Bitcoin for merchants that do not accept crypto directly. But that kind of defeats the whole purpose of this exercise, so I will be drawn to merchants that accept it directly.

If you are inclined, this is definitely an exercise that I would recommend playing around with. Just do not throw a sizable amount of money at it until you get comfortable with it.

[Slippy]

Excellent post, Inor!
The world is moving at a pace more rapid than any of us would have imagined 20 years ago.

Some is for the better, some is not. Guys like you and a lot of us on OTP can capitalize and enjoy the opportunities of cyber-shit and retreat back to our real world easily.

I do feel sorry for the young folk who damn near 100% live in a cyberworld and can't function in a real world.


I set up a free-ware wallet on the phone that I de-Googled a few months back and did my first two transactions with it Friday. (I wrote a post about the whole process of de-Googling the phone a few months ago). So, here are my thoughts about the experience...

1 - Setting the whole thing up was a pain in the ass. It was made doubly so because I really did not know what I was doing or where this whole process was going to lead, so I was unsure if I "was doing it right". That said, once I got an account set up to buy the Bitcoin and got the wallet set up and got the broker account linked to my wallet, everything else worked easily. And since the setup only has to be done once, moving forward does not seem like it will be an issue at all.

2 - Making purchases with it is insanely easy. Both merchants just had a QR code that I scanned, then entered the amount to transfer and hit the Transfer button. It was actually easier and faster than paying with my check card.

3 - I have not set up my de-Googled phone with a wireless provider yet. So I did have to log into the wireless network for each merchant to be able to do the transfer. That was not an issue in these cases because both merchants know me, but I will have to get a wireless provider for the phone before I try to use it in Tucson.

4 - With these two purchases I even saved quite a bit by paying in Bitcoin because the market moved in my favor between the time I bought it last Wednesday night and Friday when I used it. But I am still figuring over the course of a year, it will not save me much (if any) money.

5 - I still have to set up a means to back up the data on my de-Googled phone. That should be pretty easy to do since I have several secure Unix servers running here. I can just set up a nightly job to run on the phone to back it up to one of the servers.

I am not ready to dive in head first yet, but overall I am really happy with how this whole project is working out. There are even several services that will allow me to pay for transactions through the Visa network with Bitcoin for merchants that do not accept crypto directly. But that kind of defeats the whole purpose of this exercise, so I will be drawn to merchants that accept it directly.

If you are inclined, this is definitely an exercise that I would recommend playing around with. Just do not throw a sizable amount of money at it until you get comfortable with it.

[TJC44]

Bumping the thread.

Any updates Inor?

Did you look at hardware wallets in your search? I'm thinking of one that I can just plug into my pc when I want to transact, but I am leery about a China-made one. Too much chance of them programming in a backdoor kill command.

[shootbrownelk]

Bears some investigation, Inor.

Being brutally honest, I have no understanding of this cryptocurrency sorcery thing.

Edit; Arguably, the best investment today may be canned food goods!

Canned food, Liquor, Cigarettes, Cigars and Ammunition and components along with some junk silver. I have a nest-egg of .22 ammo for barter if..... I mean when SHTF.

[Inor]

Bumping the thread.

Any updates Inor?

Did you look at hardware wallets in your search? I'm thinking of one that I can just plug into my pc when I want to transact, but I am leery about a China-made one. Too much chance of them programming in a backdoor kill command.

Well, it has been about two months that I have been using Bitcoin for purchases at the feed store and our weekly dinners at the local diner. So, here is the update...

1- Overall, I am calling the effort a success. Depending on how BTC moves against USD, some weeks I have saved money, some weeks it has cost a little more. But overall, just by watching the exchange rates, I have been able to keep it within +/- 2%. I could have actually come out making money by making my purchases in USD on the weeks when BTC was down and using BTC on the weeks when it was rising.

The point of this exercise was never to "make money" or even "save money". The whole point of this exercise was figure out an easy way to maintain anonymity. So, to keep from getting my ass handed to me the last few weeks when BTC has basically been in free fall, I have been buying less (only what I need in the short-term) using BTC, then converting more USD into BTC since the exchange is favorable. When I first started this exercise BTC was going up pretty regularly, so then I was buying more products with it and converting smaller amounts of USD.

So, on the anonymity side and the ease of transaction side, it has worked perfectly. I just need to pay attention to the exchange rates to keep from getting slaughtered when BTC has a really bad day or week.

2 - I am still using the wallet on my cell phone and that has been working fine. I did have one situation where I was in the process of moving BTC from the online broker account where I buy it onto my local wallet and the internet dropped. I was afraid I might have lost it but once the internet came back, the transaction picked up right where it left off automatically and my cell phone wallet was updated properly. That was a HUGE concern so I am glad it happened because it proved the recovery works before I started moving larger amounts of money between the two.

3 - Mrs Inor and I were in Tucson a few weeks ago and stopped to get lunch at a restaurant which accepted payment in BTC. That was a good test of dealing with a vendor that does not know us. That transaction worked flawlessly as well.

Thus far, the whole exercise has worked well within the constraints of what we planned for it. As more and more businesses start accepting BTC as a form of payment, I will definitely be using it more and more. Although it is possible to save some money if you watch the exchange rates closely, in our case I am okay with even paying a little more just to maintain the anonymity.

[StratBastard]

Well, it has been about two months that I have been using Bitcoin for purchases at the feed store and our weekly dinners at the local diner. So, here is the update...

1- Overall, I am calling the effort a success. Depending on how BTC moves against USD, some weeks I have saved money, some weeks it has cost a little more. But overall, just by watching the exchange rates, I have been able to keep it within +/- 2%. I could have actually come out making money by making my purchases in USD on the weeks when BTC was down and using BTC on the weeks when it was rising.

The point of this exercise was never to "make money" or even "save money". The whole point of this exercise was figure out an easy way to maintain anonymity. So, to keep from getting my ass handed to me the last few weeks when BTC has basically been in free fall, I have been buying less (only what I need in the short-term) using BTC, then converting more USD into BTC since the exchange is favorable. When I first started this exercise BTC was going up pretty regularly, so then I was buying more products with it and converting smaller amounts of USD.

So, on the anonymity side and the ease of transaction side, it has worked perfectly. I just need to pay attention to the exchange rates to keep from getting slaughtered when BTC has a really bad day or week.

2 - I am still using the wallet on my cell phone and that has been working fine. I did have one situation where I was in the process of moving BTC from the online broker account where I buy it onto my local wallet and the internet dropped. I was afraid I might have lost it but once the internet came back, the transaction picked up right where it left off automatically and my cell phone wallet was updated properly. That was a HUGE concern so I am glad it happened because it proved the recovery works before I started moving larger amounts of money between the two.

3 - Mrs Inor and I were in Tucson a few weeks ago and stopped to get lunch at a restaurant which accepted payment in BTC. That was a good test of dealing with a vendor that does not know us. That transaction worked flawlessly as well.

Thus far, the whole exercise has worked well within the constraints of what we planned for it. As more and more businesses start accepting BTC as a form of payment, I will definitely be using it more and more. Although it is possible to save some money if you watch the exchange rates closely, in our case I am okay with even paying a little more just to maintain the anonymity.

Good stuff here Inor... especially for those of us just now learning about BTC. Thanx for this post!

[MountainGirl]

Well, it has been about two months that I have been using Bitcoin for purchases at the feed store and our weekly dinners at the local diner. So, here is the update...

1- Overall, I am calling the effort a success. Depending on how BTC moves against USD, some weeks I have saved money, some weeks it has cost a little more. But overall, just by watching the exchange rates, I have been able to keep it within +/- 2%. I could have actually come out making money by making my purchases in USD on the weeks when BTC was down and using BTC on the weeks when it was rising.

The point of this exercise was never to "make money" or even "save money". The whole point of this exercise was figure out an easy way to maintain anonymity. So, to keep from getting my ass handed to me the last few weeks when BTC has basically been in free fall, I have been buying less (only what I need in the short-term) using BTC, then converting more USD into BTC since the exchange is favorable. When I first started this exercise BTC was going up pretty regularly, so then I was buying more products with it and converting smaller amounts of USD.

So, on the anonymity side and the ease of transaction side, it has worked perfectly. I just need to pay attention to the exchange rates to keep from getting slaughtered when BTC has a really bad day or week.

2 - I am still using the wallet on my cell phone and that has been working fine. I did have one situation where I was in the process of moving BTC from the online broker account where I buy it onto my local wallet and the internet dropped. I was afraid I might have lost it but once the internet came back, the transaction picked up right where it left off automatically and my cell phone wallet was updated properly. That was a HUGE concern so I am glad it happened because it proved the recovery works before I started moving larger amounts of money between the two.

3 - Mrs Inor and I were in Tucson a few weeks ago and stopped to get lunch at a restaurant which accepted payment in BTC. That was a good test of dealing with a vendor that does not know us. That transaction worked flawlessly as well.

Thus far, the whole exercise has worked well within the constraints of what we planned for it. As more and more businesses start accepting BTC as a form of payment, I will definitely be using it more and more. Although it is possible to save some money if you watch the exchange rates closely, in our case I am okay with even paying a little more just to maintain the anonymity.

Yes, thanks for the post.

One thing I'm wondering about, regarding 'anonymity'.

Since your phone tracks your movements (regardless of whether your 'location' is turned on or not) - does it also record that a bitcoin transaction was even made (without the identifiers of to whom/for what/how much etc) either through the wallet, or some other auto data storage set-up on the phone?

My thinking is info like "Inor was at this restaurant and a BTC transaction occurred," might still be present. If there is an absolute firewall between your phone and the existance/occurance of BTC transactions - then the anonymity would be substantial.

[Inor]

Yes, thanks for the post.

One thing I'm wondering about, regarding 'anonymity'.

Since your phone tracks your movements (regardless of whether your 'location' is turned on or not) - does it also record that a bitcoin transaction was even made (without the identifiers of to whom/for what/how much etc) either through the wallet, or some other auto data storage set-up on the phone?

My thinking is info like "Inor was at this restaurant and a BTC transaction occurred," might still be present. If there is an absolute firewall between your phone and the existance/occurance of BTC transactions - then the anonymity would be substantial.

Excellent point and I am still working out the details of that one...

There is no tracking between the phone and the wallet software that runs on it. That I am positive about. The software wallet I am running is a completely open source project and I have gone through the source code for it with a fine tooth comb. So I am positive there is no way to track the phone against a transaction or a specific wallet. But...

The phone that I have it installed on is just a regular old Google phone, running their standard Android OS and connected through Verizon. In other words, no privacy at all and tracking everything. I have another phone that is running a de-Googled operating system that cannot be associated with me, which will ultimately be the phone I put the wallet software on. (I did write a post about the de-Googling process here several months ago.) But...

Using Verizon as my carrier is a big problem. They can and do track the phone and are able to associate it specifically to me. Unfortunately, we live far enough out in the sticks that Verizon is the only reliable option for a carrier that I have found so far. There is another small carrier that just started out here and caters to folks like us that want privacy. My neighbor who wants the bee hives just signed up with them. So I am waiting to see how well that works for them. If it works for them, I will kick Verizon to the curb and start using my de-Google phone with the new carrier and be sitting fat.

So, in short this a FAR bigger effort than "just use BTC and fly under the radar".

[MountainGirl]

...

Using Verizon as my carrier is a big problem. They can and do track the phone and are able to associate it specifically to me. Unfortunately, we live far enough out in the sticks that Verizon is the only reliable option for a carrier that I have found so far. There is another small carrier that just started out here and caters to folks like us that want privacy. My neighbor who wants the bee hives just signed up with them. So I am waiting to see how well that works for them. If it works for them, I will kick Verizon to the curb and start using my de-Google phone with the new carrier and be sitting fat.

So, in short this a FAR bigger effort than "just use BTC and fly under the radar".

We face the same problem here: Verizon is the only reliable option. Plus, we're using V's wifi for internet until we're here full time - but with the Google/Verizon incestuous tangle nothing is anonymous. Ever.

My understanding is that some of the smaller outfits (StraightTalk, etc) buy bandwidth from Verizon - to avoid having to put up their own infrastructure; which means during busy times their pipe would be cranked down in favor of V customers... pffft... What I've always wondered is if V has access to the 'data' that runs through their system - even though it's just technically 'space' that they're selling to smaller carriers. Do you happen to know?

Under the radar = use cash and leave your phone at home.
Then again...the gps in your truck will always give you up. :biglaugh:

[1skrewsloose]

MG, thanks for this, it didn't occur to me the smaller carriers were being cranked down. I wondered why when I checked my messages or phone calls and find out the call or message was from two hours ago before I got a notification.

[Inor]

I have been working the BTC thing for about 5 months now, so here is the update I promised...

Overall, I am pretty pleased with the experiment and am calling it a limited success so far. But there are a few things to note...

First and foremost, you absolutely have to pay attention and be patient! The price of BTC especially, swings wildly from day to day and sometimes even hour to hour. As I mentioned when I started this experiment, I am not doing it to "make money" but rather to fly under the radar and allow those I trade with to gain the benefits of not using Federal Reserve Notes to transact business. That said, if you watch the exchange rates and learn to play the moves, you can get some pretty good savings as well.

Mostly I was using it early on at the feed mill and a couple local restaurants. That worked fine, but... It does have some of the same challenges as doing business in Canada using Federal Reserve Notes. The businesses I have been using it with have an "exchange rate" that they usually update daily, in the morning. If the price of BTC happens to jump between the time they post the exchange rate and the time I make the purchase, that works against me. Conversely, if BTC goes down, it works in my favor. In the end, it is probably a wash. But it is something to be aware of.

The feed mill does give a me discount, beyond the exchange, just because I am saving them some cash on the transaction as well. (I assume that is due to them saving on taxes, but that is a conversation we would never have in public.)

For the first couple months the price of BTC was pretty stable (by BTC standards) and was bouncing around between about $32,000 and $37,000. I was just exchanging about $50 or $100 in Federal Reserve Notes per week and just using it strictly for purchases so I never had more than a couple hundred USD worth in my wallet.

Somewhere at the end of May/beginning of June the price of BTC fell off a cliff. Up until about two weeks ago, it was bouncing around between $19,000 and $21,000. When that started, I stopped doing purchases with it and went back to buying stuff in Federal Reserve Notes. At the same time, I had become comfortable enough with the process of trading with BTC that I started to exchange larger amounts of Federal Reserve Notes and just keep it in my wallet to dollar cost average the price down in my wallet. So I have built up some reserves in my BTC wallet now. The last couple weeks, it has come up some to around $23,000 so when I go back to buying with BTC again, I will have some pretty good savings (assuming the price holds in the current range).

I do expect it will fall hard again this fall and when it does, I will double check with the folks trading with it to make sure they are still okay continuing to trade with it. If they are, I will exchange some larger amounts of Federal Reserve Notes into BTC. Until then, I will start going back to buying with it again in limited doses.

So, like I said at the beginning of this post, I am pretty happy with how it is working out. The feed mill people (the ones I talk to most about it) also seem to be doing well with it. So as long as they continue to make money on the arrangement and I continue to have some savings, it is a win/win arrangement.

The biggest caution I would offer if you are thinking about trying it yourself is to make sure you pay attention to the exchange rates. Also, make sure you keep some Federal Reserve Notes handy to be able to buy down the average cost of BTC when the price moves down. If you try to run your wallet too close to your actual expenses, you will almost certainly lose. But if you can keep and build some BTC in your wallet when the price is falling hard and only spend it when the price is rising, you can actually make out pretty well and the folks you are buying from will also benefit.

[MountainGirl]

Thanks for the update Inor. Appreciated.

Small tangential question.

When/if CWII happens - what (is your guess) will happen re BTC?

My question leans towards sustainability rather than value; but if you have hunches on either I'd sure like to hear them.

[Inor]

Thanks for the update Inor. Appreciated.

Small tangential question.

When/if CWII happens - what (is your guess) will happen re BTC?

My question leans towards sustainability rather than value; but if you have hunches on either I'd sure like to hear them.

That totally depends on the availability of electricity and a network. If both are available, it will continue to be used as a means of trade since it is much more convenient than using gold or silver. If there is a situation, will electricity and a network be available? I don't know but what I thought about when starting this whole thing was Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. When they were in the depths of their wars, the electricity and the network was largely still in tact.

[MountainGirl]

That totally depends on the availability of electricity and a network. If both are available, it will continue to be used as a means of trade since it is much more convenient than using gold or silver. If there is a situation, will electricity and a network be available? I don't know but what I thought about when starting this whole thing was Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan. When they were in the depths of their wars, the electricity and the network was largely still in tact.

If it is able to continue, and I hope it is, any guesses as to how much the totalitarian US govt will be able to affect/control/block/etc ?
If they can't control/regulate it - I can see the day when they'll shut down businesses (via license denial, etc) that utilize it.

Tryin to jump out of the 'hell in a handbasket' here.
Fwiw, I dont think it will come to CWII. I think it will be much much worse.

[Jester-ND]

Here’s a partial list of companies that have dropped Bitcoin support for payments:

• Dell

• Expedia

• Fiverr

• Microsoft

• PayPal

• Steam

• Stripe

leadership at Steam — a popular digital distribution platform for PC games — cited the volatility of Bitcoin as well as its variable transaction fees, which they say skyrocketed from $.20 per transaction to $20 per transaction by the time they pulled the plug.

-During their initial rollouts and afterward, new cryptocurrencies spend some time failing at one of the most important things money is supposed to do: maintaining a reasonably stable value so people can use it to purchase goods and services.A great deal of the political process in civilized countries revolves around balancing the value of money with the state of economic opportunity and the productive output in that same country. For better and worse, and probably mostly for the better, Bitcoin throws everything about this ordered design straight out the window. Relative independence from fiscal policy is a “feature,” not a “bug,” for cryptocurrency evangelists.That’s the worry among these retailers: That Bitcoin is too untethered to any of the regulatory and social mechanisms that help traditional money maintain actual and perceived value.

To put it another way, everybody in America has a rough idea of what a dollar is worth, and we recognize it as part of a system in which we all already take part. Bitcoin isn’t necessarily a less ideal “financial system” , it’s just a less mature one that we don’t know how to govern yet without smothering its most attractive features.

There’s a lot of promise in crypto, but most people aren’t ready to commit to it. Why? Because other people aren’t ready to commit to it. The rollout of this technology has become a catch-22. But that doesn’t dull its vast potential. There’s a long uphill climb before Bitcoin and any other digital currencies earn legitimacy and a place alongside other world currencies. Some companies have decided it’s not a hill worth climbing , but that doesn’t mean history can’t prove them wrong in time.

(this was all cut and pasted but I agree with much of it)

[MountainGirl]

Here’s a partial list of companies that have dropped Bitcoin support for payments:

• Dell

• Expedia

• Fiverr

• Microsoft

• PayPal

• Steam

• Stripe

leadership at Steam — a popular digital distribution platform for PC games — cited the volatility of Bitcoin as well as its variable transaction fees, which they say skyrocketed from $.20 per transaction to $20 per transaction by the time they pulled the plug.

-During their initial rollouts and afterward, new cryptocurrencies spend some time failing at one of the most important things money is supposed to do: maintaining a reasonably stable value so people can use it to purchase goods and services.A great deal of the political process in civilized countries revolves around balancing the value of money with the state of economic opportunity and the productive output in that same country. For better and worse, and probably mostly for the better, Bitcoin throws everything about this ordered design straight out the window. Relative independence from fiscal policy is a “feature,” not a “bug,” for cryptocurrency evangelists.That’s the worry among these retailers: That Bitcoin is too untethered to any of the regulatory and social mechanisms that help traditional money maintain actual and perceived value.

To put it another way, everybody in America has a rough idea of what a dollar is worth, and we recognize it as part of a system in which we all already take part. Bitcoin isn’t necessarily a less ideal “financial system” , it’s just a less mature one that we don’t know how to govern yet without smothering its most attractive features.

There’s a lot of promise in crypto, but most people aren’t ready to commit to it. Why? Because other people aren’t ready to commit to it. The rollout of this technology has become a catch-22. But that doesn’t dull its vast potential. There’s a long uphill climb before Bitcoin and any other digital currencies earn legitimacy and a place alongside other world currencies. Some companies have decided it’s not a hill worth climbing , but that doesn’t mean history can’t prove them wrong in time.

(this was all cut and pasted but I agree with much of it)

Thanks for that, Jester - it filled in some gaps for me.
I wonder if the whole shebang will have enough time to mature - before everything falls apart.

[MountainGirl]

For those of you who indulge in crypto - here is something kinda interesting, from texas gun forum (TGT). The poster is one of the resident IT gurus; the thread is re the ATF's current attempts at confiscations - and where they get their lists of who to target:

"The Federal Government buys private data from the corporations that collect and analyze your internet browsing, cell phone movements, e-mails, purchases, TV watching, and spending habits.

Nowadays there are private government contractors who specialize in buying your data, and curating it into easy-to-use query databases where IRS, ATF, HHS, FBI, CDC, DEA Employees simply log-in and click check boxes to select the which type of algorithmic analysis they want on a Citizen.

In the financial markets we fight companies like Chainalysis tracking us on behalf of the I.R.S.


www.chainalysis.com
Chainalysis for Crypto Investigations - Chainalysis
Chainalysis for Crypto Investigations allows for real-time cryptocurrency intelligence to detect illicit activity, map addresses, and build cases.


My Son-in-Law got a call from our local ATF goon when he bought solvent traps on Alibaba using Bitcoin. He used BTC to avoid the credit card flag. They still saw it, seized his package at the post office, and told him to quit it."