I wonder who you can believe

[Inor]

I wonder who you can believe about the rancher and his son in Oregon that were convicted of arson... The government and the MSM that claim they started grass fires to cover up evidence of poaching deer on their own land?

Or maybe these guys that claim the whole thing stems from a long running feud the family had going with U.S. Fish and Game service?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/#more-110497

Our government would never do something like do you think?

That said, those Bundy guys are just begging for trouble from the Feds though.

[TJC44]

Fox is calling the group at the refuge "Protesters", where I've seen reports that called them "Militants". The Hammonds are prepared to report to jail as ordered. I think what sparked a lot of this is that they served 3 months and one year sentences, but then some judge ruled the sentences too short and resentenced them to 4 years. That is where the (in)justice system screwed up. One could say that falls under Double Jeopardy. The Bundy's father stayed home. His 3 sons are in Oregon.
The feds may not drop a SWAT team on their backs now, but they are going to feel a world of hurt from the Federal Machine.

[hawgrider]

I wonder who you can believe about the rancher and his son in Oregon that were convicted of arson... The government and the MSM that claim they started grass fires to cover up evidence of poaching deer on their own land?

Or maybe these guys that claim the whole thing stems from a long running feud the family had going with U.S. Fish and Game service?

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2016/01/03/full-story-on-whats-going-on-in-oregon-militia-take-over-malheur-national-wildlife-refuge-in-protest-to-hammond-family-persecution/#more-110497

Our government would never do something like do you think?

That said, those Bundy guys are just begging for trouble from the Feds though.Cops plant guns and drugs. Fed trustworthy? Nah they will fabricate the facts in a heartbeat. Why would big Ranchers risk such accusations such as poaching? Seems a bit trivial for outfits that big. Want to trust your government? Ask an Indian first.

That said I would suspect foul play from the feds first. But then again.....

[Arklatex]

It's my understanding that they just did a controlled burn like rural folks do everyday nationwide. Just so happened to be on fed land. They weren't gonna do it so someone needed to... Adding to the sentence that shouldn't have been in the first place is nothing short of HORSESHIT!

JM2C

[BucketBack]

Then them ranchers/??? like to take public land for themselves. Just like the folks supporting them. They have the crazed look to the eyeballs.

[Inor]

Then them ranchers/??? like to take public land for themselves. Just like the folks supporting them. They have the crazed look to the eyeballs.

Mrs Inor and I are friends with a cattle rancher in Arizona. The thing I have noticed about them is they are a lot like the corn farmers around here - always bitching about something. But then again, I have absolutely ZERO trust for what the federal government says. Furthermore, why does the federal government have so much land in the western U.S. in the first place? Some states like Nevada, the feds own almost 90% of the land!

[DerBiermeister]

Furthermore, why does the federal government have so much land in the western U.S. in the first place? Some states like Nevada, the feds own almost 90% of the land!



You can't hide things with anything less ...

[hawgrider]

You can't hide things with anything less ...Area 51.... I knew they were hiding stuff out there.:alien::nuke::alien:

[James m]

ThThe government seems to own everything anymore. Its orwellian like, odd. America is beyond tyranny and oppression, its almost totalitarian.

[TJC44]

Area 51.... I knew they were hiding stuff out there.:alien::nuke::alien:

Oregon is sasquatch area, isn't it?

Sasquatch, want to fess up?

Seriously, I don't see a prescribed burn, whether set by Feds or citizens, warranting a 4-5 year sentence in Federal pen.
Shit, the bitch that killed the Worcester 6 got off on an insanity plea, and SHE was the reason they entered the building.
I have to admit, I am very unclear on the concept of "open land" out west. In the east, every square inch of land is "owned", and defined somewhere, or somehow.
...to be continued....

[Inor]

Oregon is sasquatch area, isn't it?

Sasquatch, want to fess up?

Seriously, I don't see a prescribed burn, whether set by Feds or citizens, warranting a 4-5 year sentence in Federal pen.
Shit, the bitch that killed the Worcester 6 got off on an insanity plea, and SHE was the reason they entered the building.
I have to admit, I am very unclear on the concept of "open land" out west. In the east, every square inch of land is "owned", and defined somewhere, or somehow.
...to be continued....

Read my original link. According to the ranchers, it was not even a prescribed burn. It was a back burn to STOP a wildfire started by lightning! The rancher and his son should be lauded if that is true!

Regardless you are right, being sent to the federal pen for 5 years AND a $400,000 fine is absolutely ridiculous!

[Dwight55]

For me at this point, . . . it's like one of those messy "he said..........she said" divorces where you know and really like both people. Ya just don't know who to believe, . . . but you want to see the best in both.

But I do think the second judge overstepped his authority, . . . and was probably prodded to do it by a scumbag of some sort, . . .

AND, . . . if you get down to the center core of the whole thing, . . . somebody involved in this stands to make or lose a bunch of money, . . . and that is what started the whole thing. Follow the money trail, . . . it always leads to the bad guy.

May God bless,
Dwight

[shootbrownelk]

I have absolutely no use for "Welfare" ranchers. We have a lot of them here. No matter how low the grazing fees are ($1.35 per MONTH for a cow and calf) they still bitch and want more. Not to mention the fact that they think they own all the wildlife, as well as wanting complete control of the land that they lease the GRASS on....they want to determine who hunts and who doesn't.
Cliven Bundy and his kids are nothing more than freeloaders who don't want to pay their way. They're stealing from us taxpayers.
That SOB Bundy owes the BLM over a million dollars in grazing fees...that ass-hat is no patriot...he's a frickin' moocher.

[hawgrider]

I have absolutely no use for "Welfare" ranchers. We have a lot of them here. No matter how low the grazing fees are ($3.50 per MONTH for a cow and calf) they still bitch and want more. Not to mention the fact that they think they own all the wildlife, as well as wanting complete control of the land that they lease the GRASS on....they want to determine who hunts and who doesn't.
Cliven Bundy and his kids are nothing more than freeloaders who don't want to pay their way. They're stealing from us taxpayers.
That SOB Bundy owes the BLM over a million dollars in grazing fees...that ass-hat is no patriot...he's a frickin' moocher.Interesting inside viewpoint. Sounds like the guys on fed/state land "I've been hunting here 30 yrs so you can't hunt here. Oh really...

[Sasquatch]

Oregon is sasquatch area, isn't it?

Sasquatch, want to fess up?

Seriously, I don't see a prescribed burn, whether set by Feds or citizens, warranting a 4-5 year sentence in Federal pen.
Shit, the bitch that killed the Worcester 6 got off on an insanity plea, and SHE was the reason they entered the building.
I have to admit, I am very unclear on the concept of "open land" out west. In the east, every square inch of land is "owned", and defined somewhere, or somehow.
...to be continued....
Well since you asked...I do occasionally like a smoke but you can't prove those cigs were mine.

As for the whole situation I am withholding judgment until I get a little more credible information.

[shootbrownelk]

Well since you asked...I do occasionally like a smoke but you can't prove those cigs were mine.

As for the whole situation I am withholding judgment until I get a little more credible information.

Sasquatch. Go to the site "HUNT TALK" they have a thread going there with plenty of links on the matter. The Hammonds intentionally set that fire to cover-up deer poaching they were involved in. Testimony from a young relative that was with them at the time supports it. They have had more than their share of run-ins with Law enforcement and G&F with convictions, so this isn't an isolated incident, but an ongoing problem.

[Slippy]

...But then again, I have absolutely ZERO trust for what the federal government says. Furthermore, why does the federal government have so much land in the western U.S. in the first place? Some states like Nevada, the feds own almost 90% of the land!

There lies the problem. Does the Constitution allow for Federal owned Land or should it be owned by either the state or privately?

I believe that the Feds have no business owning any Federal Land/Property.

[Inor]

There lies the problem. Does the Constitution allow for Federal owned Land or should it be owned by either the state or privately?

I believe that the Feds have no business owning any Federal Land/Property.

EXACTLY! If the feds do not own the land, the problem goes away instantly. The ranchers pay private land owners for grazing rights, or don't. If a rancher's cows are on somebody else's land without permission, they get shot. End of problem.

I wish I could "like" that 10000 times.

[Slippy]

EXACTLY! If the feds do not own the land, the problem goes away instantly. The ranchers pay private land owners for grazing rights, or don't. If a rancher's cows are on somebody else's land without permission, they get shot. End of problem.

I wish I could "like" that 10000 times.

Exactly Inor!

Advice to the youngsters;

The Federal Government CAUSES problems, it doesn't solve them.

[dsdmmat]

Exactly Inor!

Advice to the youngsters;

The Federal Government CAUSES problems, it doesn't solve them. there are not too many problems that cannot be solved with the proper application of high explosives.

[Sparkyprep]

there are not too many problems that cannot be solved with the proper application of high explosives.

I LOVE explosives! :nuke:

[shootbrownelk]

There lies the problem. Does the Constitution allow for Federal owned Land or should it be owned by either the state or privately?

I believe that the Feds have no business owning any Federal Land/Property.
If you lived out here you'd think differently.

[hawgrider]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUh_pjHONrnhzFbPv1Sg5EnA&v=e4qI1EzFWew

[Slippy]

If you lived out here you'd think differently.

Respectfully shootbrownelk, I wouldn't think differently.

I do not believe that the US Federal Government should use my and your tax dollars to own and maintain land. I cannot find anything in the US Constitution that says the Feds should take State Land and dictate what should be done with it and use tax dollars taken from us to manage it.

That is wrong.

The options are to return the land to the States. I have no problem with the states managing the land or selling the land to We The People.

My mind is made up on this issue regardless of where I live in the US.

Again, respectfully, What makes you think that my mind would be changed if I lived in one of the states that had a huge percentage of BLM or Dept of Interior managed/owned land?

If the Feds did not own land, you would not have situations like this.

[OSFG]

I can see were a state with a sparse population could have trouble maintaining the lands of the state that aren't owned...therefore seeks funds from the federal government to maintain. In essence turning the land over to the federal government. To me this is wrong. If a state cannot maintain it...sell it off...homestead it out. The federal government should not own anything but buildings in DC. The fed is not supposed to own parts of this country...they can provide tax dollars to help keep up national parks etc....but our federal government is of the people...by the people...FOR the People...so land is either open to the public....owned by the state...or owned by a person.

My 2cents
Osfg

[Inor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=UUh_pjHONrnhzFbPv1Sg5EnA&v=e4qI1EzFWew

Thanks for that! I had forgotten about Wild Bill. He makes more sense than all of the talking heads on T.V. put together.

[hawgrider]

Thanks for that! I had forgotten about Wild Bill. He makes more sense than all of the talking heads on T.V. put together.Me too. His web site got hacked he was down for a bit a while back. I hit his site today looking for his take on recent events.

[hawgrider]

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/PFWdOa3Zjt_mMMiRPFuZlQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztmaT1maWxsO2g9NjU5O2lsPXBsYW 5lO3B5b2ZmPTA7cT03NTt3PTk2MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2016-01-07T052638Z_1053398063_GF20000086339_RTRMADP_3_OREG ON-MILITIA-REFUGE.JPG


Since Saturday, the brothers and a small band of supporters have occupied the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, which they seized to protest the U.S. government’s control of vast tracts of Western land.

On Tuesday, for the first time, they allowed two reporters to join them inside their refuge for a night marked by long discussions and moments of hair-trigger tension.

Earlier, the Bundys had heard from people they trusted that federal law enforcement agents were assembling in Burns, the nearest town,

http://news.yahoo.com/pizza-rifles-tension-night-inside-oregon-protest-055624373.html

[shootbrownelk]

Respectfully shootbrownelk, I wouldn't think differently.

I do not believe that the US Federal Government should use my and your tax dollars to own and maintain land. I cannot find anything in the US Constitution that says the Feds should take State Land and dictate what should be done with it and use tax dollars taken from us to manage it.

That is wrong.

The options are to return the land to the States. I have no problem with the states managing the land or selling the land to We The People.

My mind is made up on this issue regardless of where I live in the US.

Again, respectfully, What makes you think that my mind would be changed if I lived in one of the states that had a huge percentage of BLM or Dept of Interior managed/owned land?

If the Feds did not own land, you would not have situations like this.
I hunt exclusively on BLM & NF lands, so does everyone I know out here. Ranchers pay out 12.1 Million dollars in Grazing fees. BLM spent 34.3 Million for Livestock Grazing administration. If the State of Wyoming gets ahold of these Federally owned land (Taxpayer owned) they will manage it like they do the state land now. Which is, NO camping, NO fires, NO access unless the Lease holder agrees to it. No Thanks, There are a lot of Non Resident hunters that rely on these lands too.
Not everyone has deep pockets to pay a Rancher or Outfitter to hunt Private lands, I know I don't. Lease holders here, In my experience are horrible stewards of the land. I can't believe that this site doesn't have any Hunters on it that use BLM & NF lands to hunt, and that will back me up on this. This State would sell off huge chunks of this ground to the wealthy for short term gain.

[hawgrider]

I hunt exclusively on BLM & NF lands, so does everyone I know out here. Ranchers pay out 12.1 Million dollars in Grazing fees. BLM spent 34.3 Million for Livestock Grazing administration. If the State of Wyoming gets ahold of these Federally owned land (Taxpayer owned) they will manage it like they do the state land now. Which is, NO camping, NO fires, NO access unless the Lease holder agrees to it. No Thanks, There are a lot of Non Resident hunters that rely on these lands too.
Not everyone has deep pockets to pay a Rancher or Outfitter to hunt Private lands, I know I don't. Lease holders here, In my experience are horrible stewards of the land. I can't believe that this site doesn't have any Hunters on it that use BLM & NF lands to hunt, and that will back me up on this. This State would sell off huge chunks of this ground to the wealthy for short term gain.Ive hunted both state and fed land in Mi. for about 30 years or so. But Mi. Does not lease the land to ranchers. Now thanks to my son inlaw I hunt many acres of private very productive farm land.

I would think the land in question being leased for grazing rights would be for that only and the lessee would have no say so of how other tax payers are using our land to hike and hunt. I don't see how the fed could keep any of us from using our land for the intended purpose it was protected for.

[shootbrownelk]

Ive hunted both state and fed land in Mi. for about 30 years or so. But Mi. Does not lease the land to ranchers. Now thanks to my son inlaw I hunt many acres of private very productive farm land.

I would think the land in question being leased for grazing rights would be for that only and the lessee would have no say so of how other tax payers are using our land to hike and hunt. I don't see how the fed could keep any of us from using our land for the intended purpose it was protected for.

That's how the State of Wyoming administers our State lands....Ranching/Oil/Gas/Coal comes first...the folks who recreate come in a distant second. Our Legislators are Agriculture/Mineral industry insiders. Either ranchers themselves (Governor is a rancher) or beholden to the energy industry for campaign dollars. Money talks out here, the average citizen be damned. The Federal government doesn't have such restrictions on use.

[hawgrider]

That's how the State of Wyoming administers our State lands....Ranching/Oil/Gas/Coal comes first...the folks who recreate come in a distant second. Our Legislators are Agriculture/Mineral industry insiders. Either ranchers themselves (Governor is a rancher) or beholden to the energy industry for campaign dollars. Money talks out here, the average citizen be damned. The Federal government doesn't have such restrictions on use.
Thats not right then. Thats buffalo shit. That land was set aside and protected for citizens. Greed and rule seem to be a priority out there.

[James m]

The federal government holds 1.8 million acres in the Hawaiian Islands. Everywhere you turn its federal land. But to put that in perspective 1.8 million acres on an island, is 2,800 square miles. Maui and oahu are only about 575 square miles combined.

[hawgrider]

The federal government holds 1.8 million acres in the Hawaiian Islands. Everywhere you turn its federal land. But to put that in perspective 1.8 million acres on an island, is 2,800 square miles. Maui and oahu are only about 575 square miles combined.Is most of that on the big island or is it scattered on all those islands?

[James m]

Its scattered. On a lot of islands between most of Hawaii and midway they are governed by fish and wildlife. Even the ones near the rest of Hawaii, you are prohibited from landing boats there, the island is off limits because of thousands of sea birds. There was a problem around the late 1800's they were going extinct, but now there's a million of them.

[shootbrownelk]

The federal government holds 1.8 million acres in the Hawaiian Islands. Everywhere you turn its federal land. But to put that in perspective 1.8 million acres on an island, is 2,800 square miles. Maui and oahu are only about 575 square miles combined.

That's lots of acres for O'bummer & Moochelle to roam after they get a boot in the ass out of the "People's House". He'll probably run for mayor of Chicago though, there's so many guns to be controlled. His butt-buddy Rahm Imanuel will probably resign or be recalled soon.

[Slippy]

I see where you are coming from.


I hunt exclusively on BLM & NF lands, so does everyone I know out here. Ranchers pay out 12.1 Million dollars in Grazing fees. BLM spent 34.3 Million for Livestock Grazing administration. If the State of Wyoming gets ahold of these Federally owned land (Taxpayer owned) they will manage it like they do the state land now. Which is, NO camping, NO fires, NO access unless the Lease holder agrees to it. No Thanks, There are a lot of Non Resident hunters that rely on these lands too.
Not everyone has deep pockets to pay a Rancher or Outfitter to hunt Private lands, I know I don't. Lease holders here, In my experience are horrible stewards of the land. I can't believe that this site doesn't have any Hunters on it that use BLM & NF lands to hunt, and that will back me up on this. This State would sell off huge chunks of this ground to the wealthy for short term gain.

[slewfoot]

Cops plant guns and drugs.
Please do not make a blanket statement like this my friend. I spent a career in law enforcement and proudly say I never planted items on any suspect. A criminal mind is not an intelligent mind. Talk to them long enough and the guilty will bury themselves.

[hawgrider]

Please do not make a blanket statement like this my friend. I spent a career in law enforcement and proudly say I never planted items on any suspect. A criminal mind is not an intelligent mind. Talk to them long enough and the guilty will bury themselves.OK I'll try to correct that. Some cops have. Don't take any offense Slew. There are several cops and past cops here on this board.

Every bushel of apples or tomatoes your going to have some bad ones.

[slewfoot]

OK I'll try to correct that. Some cops have. Don't take any offense Slew. There are several cops and past cops here on this board.

Every bushel of apples or tomatoes your going to have some bad ones.
Yes you are correct my friend. No offense taken , I am proud of my chosen profession.

[hawgrider]

http://www.thedailysheeple.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/bundyranchchiefresigns.jpg


Just before this discovery was made, there were reports of people who looked like militia harassing locals, which is uncharacteristic of the protesters who initially assembled at the refuge. It turns out that these militia members suspected of harassing locals were actually undercover FBI agents.

During an impromtu press conference, Briels explained how he was so disrespected in his encounter with Grasty and was so disgusted with the situation in general, that he no longer wants to work for a government that he does not believe in. Briels added that he would still be helping people in the community with fire prevention and other issues that he has helped with in the past, but he will just no longer be doing it as a government employee. Briels went on to describe how he exposed undercover FBI agents who had come to town and were creating problems amongst the locals.

When announcing his resignation, Briels described his encounter with the judge.

“I’ve been told by Steve to distance myself from this committee of public safety. I’ve been told that we don’t know what we’re doing. I’ve been told that my life is in danger. I’ve been told all kinds of things. I will not be told what to do. I have my own mind, and I will use my own mind, not somebody else’s,” Briels said.

Many activists and militia members are now suspecting that the undercover agents were planning to act as agent provocateurs and create trouble in order to frame the protesters for things that they did not do. This theory is supported by the fact these undercover agents were reportedly bothering locals and acting in a threatening manner.

However, mainstream media has reported that militia members were harassing locals, but now that version of events is being brought into question considering the fact that undercover agents were posing as militia. The looming threat of agent provocateurs may be one of the reasons why the refuge occupiers are turning away help from outside militias who have attempted to join the occupation.

Video -http://www.thedailysheeple.com/oregon-fire-chief-catches-fbi-agents-posing-as-militia-quits-his-job-in-protest_012016