My Survival Gun Delima....

[Imaexpat2]

My small game getter and just plain fun plinking gun is a Ruger Single Six Convertible. But damn finding ammo to feed that bad boy has been few and far between and damned expensive for rim fire ammo when I have. While the situation has improved considerably in the last 20 months...it hasn't improved much. And honestly I don't see that improving a whole lot in the next several months. Further more in 2008 I watched a box of Federal Bulk 22 go from 10 bucks a box to 16 bucks and just prior to 2012 20 bucks a box! Now I am hearing that about 40 bucks is the going price!!! In fact I found a 500 round brick of shorts at Academy retailing for 38.99. 22 WRM aint that far behind a box of 9mm which can be reloaded!!!

Now granted I still have a good amount of 22 rim fire stashed away...but I aint willing to fire very much of it without replacement ammo readily available and at a REASONABLE price. That being said I am starting to think I need to find another alternative. Some considerations though are...I have a large collection of long guns and its getting hard to find more space for another one and I still have one or two I want to get. I can find room for a hand gun a lot easier and my collection of handguns are limited to a Ruger Single Six 22 rim fire, Hi Cap 9mm, 1911 in 45ACP and a 44 Mag Ruger Super Redhawk. Some thoughts that have crossed my mind are the following...

CVA Stalker in 44 Mag. These look reasonably priced. Cheaper by about 80-100 bucks than the NEF Handi-rifles, with equal craftsmanship and getting excellent reviews right out of the box on triggers and accuracy unlike the Handi Rifles which seem to be hit and miss these days on quality. It can be had in stainless and a camo stock for a few bucks more. Not an option in the Handi Rifle. The barrels aren't inter-changable like the Handi Rifle but they are more readily available for purchase. It's simple, its rugged and its fairly light weight and I am quite okay with a single shot break open gun. Yeah the 44 Mag is way too much for busting a bunny with a head shot but a 44 Spl hand loaded with a wad cutter or lead round nose at 700-800 fps seems like a workable alternative out to 25 yards and one that's pretty economical to reload. It would be handier than the Super Redhawk I already have but would be a good compliment to it. 100 yard shots on larger game such as hogs and deer would also be an option with just a ammunition load change. I already have dies for the 44 Mag, cases, primers, powder and a pretty decent stash of ammo to boot.

CVA Apex/Stalker in 223. Most of what was said above can be said here. Why 223? I have been shooting significantly down loaded 223 ammo in my 24 inch barreled bolt action. Been getting about 1200 fps with a 55 gr bullet over a modest load of Blue Dot. Majorly worried about one not making it out of the long 24 inch barrel and it's a pain in the butt to verify the bores clear after every shot. The CVA's barrel is much shorter making that less likely and being a beak action a hell of a lot easier to check and verify I have a clear bore before shooting again. The upside to this one is that I already have a Bolt Action for serious work and a AR in this caliber. I have a ton of ammunition stashed away. I have a 55 gallon barrel of once fired brass at my disposal to reload and a deep stash of components. Dont really need another 223 though, but the thought has crossed my mind given the options it would provide.

Another alternative I have considered is the Ruger new model Blackhawk Convertible in 9mm/38/357! That's actually pretty appealing to me although it's a handgun and hitting beyond 25 yards gets a little tough. But again lets go back to the main reason for wanting it...small game at short ranges and plinking as the big two. It would be a little more suitable for that than the CVA in 44 Mag or the Super Redhawk in 44 Mag. Yet it's still adequate enough despite being a single action to use for defense or short range Deer or Hog hunting in a pinch, just by no means my first choice given my extensive gun collection. I haven't had a 357 in years since my place was broken into and my 3 screw Ruger stolen by the punks next door who were never prosecuted despite being minors and leaving a hand print behind. So I still have a little ammo left over, reloading dies and components although not much brass. But since it can also fire the 9mm that leaves a little more flexibility and I have enough empty cases and components, not to mention a sizable stash of ammo, to support a small insurgency if the LA Riots come to my neighborhood. Whipping up some cat sneeze loads in a six inch barreled gun would be a Sunday afternoon in the park and very economical to boot.

I guess the last option I got that has a leg to stand on is getting a Rossi matched pair in 22 LR and 410. Unlike the Ruger 10/22 it will give me a more accurate solution in 22 that will digest any 22 load short of the mags and until the 22 rim fire situation corrects itself and catches up to market demand, suck it up and use the 410 for the time being. I could use a truck gun and this could indeed fill that role like a champ I guess. Of course the price is right as its pretty budgetly priced! While I dont have a 410 or the ability to reload it, maybe I should as it would compliment the numerous 12 guages I already have and be better suited to small game such as Squirrel and Rabbits and pest control around the homestead.

So given that I am a bit of a prepper, own a shit load of guns already and need another one about like I need a bullet in the head, have a bit of a weak spot in my collection and given all of the considerations at hand above, and looking for a long term sustainable solution, what do you think makes the most sense to choose and why? Is there another option that I am over looking as a possible solution? I would be open to other ideas although I think the ones I have listed make the most sense.

[rice paddy daddy]

Of the options you have listed the Rossi 22/410 would fill the bill for a true survival gun. Not a self defense gun, but a survival gun. There is a difference.
It would be great for small game - squirrel, rabbit, etc.
Now, I'm sure there will be some nay sayers along shortly to give their opinion as to why the 410 is a waste of time. But I'm not one of them, I own 3 - a Mossberg bolt action, an H&R/NEF single, and a Stoeger SXS double.
The 410 is a highly under rated firearm, and with the Rossi you could mount a scope on the rimfire barrel as well, the barrel may already be drilled and tapped for a base. My Rossi 30-06 single shot is.

[dutch16]

I think you've got a lot of good alternatives there. For me, +1 for the .22/.410 combo. Another idea for small game is a good air rifle. Like RPD said in his post, I'm sure a lot of people would think it's a waste of time, but it's something you might want to consider.

[Imaexpat2]

Yeah I am kind of warming up to the idea of a 2 barrel set Rossi in 22/410. Not all that warm to the 410 but as a small game getter it does have a lot to offer. Minimal powder use, minimal shot use, small and compact cartridge, cases can be loaded about a dozen times before they wear out enough to need discarding. My only other shotgun option is the 12 gauge and lest face it even light loads on that is way over kill on Squirrels and Rabbits. May have to look at that a little harder.

[Arklatex]

It also comes in 20 gauge...

[rice paddy daddy]

I'm a subscriber to The Backwoodsman Magazine (not to be confused with any other that has the word Backwoods in the title) and a number of years ago there was an article about handloading the .410.
Backwoodsman is the old-time ways, so loading the 410 was HAND loading using black powder and no tools other than a mallet, a piece of wooden dowel, a nail (to de-prime), an old cartridge case to stamp wads out of cardboard, and waterglass to seal the hull when done.

And as far as power, the 3" birdshot shell holds 11/16 oz of shot. The Winchester 3" buckshot shell has 5 pellets of OOO buck (a 12 ga only has 8).
My Mossberg bolt action has a C-Lect choke so I can instanly dial it from cylinder bore to full choke (or anything in between) with a simple twist of the fingers.
Would I use it against humans, or coyote at 75 yards? No, I have other firearms for that.

[Imaexpat2]

It also comes in 20 gauge...

I saw that too, too bad it doesn't come offered in the nickel nitride finish like the 22/410 does that would certainly cuase me a little more mental masturbation (thinking/pondering = rated G) on my part and make it more tempting! The 20 gauge would definitely open up a little more in the way of possibilities.

Just stopped by the ammo store and they have 410 ammo with #5 and #4 shot loads for about 10 bucks a box of 25.00. In my experience thats about the right size shot for Squirrel and Rabbits. Big enough to anchor them but not enough of a pay load to saturate them with shot. Guess that aint too bad for ammo cost these days. If this is the best route to go though given my situation, I am not beyond buying a Mec 600 Jr to reload shells though which I know I can load a heck of lot cheaper than a box of 25 sells for, I am sure! With as little powder and shot as it takes to do a 410 surely I can get it down to 3.50-4.00 bucks a box of 25. I have one in 12 ga and can crank out 100-120 a hour pretty easily on it despite being a "single stage" press and not be rushed doing it.

[Infidel]

My small game getter and just plain fun plinking gun is a Ruger Single Six Convertible. But damn finding ammo to feed that bad boy has been few and far between and damned expensive for rim fire ammo when I have. While the situation has improved considerably in the last 20 months...it hasn't improved much. And honestly I don't see that improving a whole lot in the next several months. Further more in 2008 I watched a box of Federal Bulk 22 go from 10 bucks a box to 16 bucks and just prior to 2012 20 bucks a box! Now I am hearing that about 40 bucks is the going price!!! In fact I found a 500 round brick of shorts at Academy retailing for 38.99. 22 WRM aint that far behind a box of 9mm which can be reloaded!!!

Now granted I still have a good amount of 22 rim fire stashed away...but I aint willing to fire very much of it without replacement ammo readily available and at a REASONABLE price. That being said I am starting to think I need to find another alternative. Some considerations though are...I have a large collection of long guns and its getting hard to find more space for another one and I still have one or two I want to get. I can find room for a hand gun a lot easier and my collection of handguns are limited to a Ruger Single Six 22 rim fire, Hi Cap 9mm, 1911 in 45ACP and a 44 Mag Ruger Super Redhawk. Some thoughts that have crossed my mind are the following...

CVA Stalker in 44 Mag. These look reasonably priced. Cheaper by about 80-100 bucks than the NEF Handi-rifles, with equal craftsmanship and getting excellent reviews right out of the box on triggers and accuracy unlike the Handi Rifles which seem to be hit and miss these days on quality. It can be had in stainless and a camo stock for a few bucks more. Not an option in the Handi Rifle. The barrels aren't inter-changable like the Handi Rifle but they are more readily available for purchase. It's simple, its rugged and its fairly light weight and I am quite okay with a single shot break open gun. Yeah the 44 Mag is way too much for busting a bunny with a head shot but a 44 Spl hand loaded with a wad cutter or lead round nose at 700-800 fps seems like a workable alternative out to 25 yards and one that's pretty economical to reload. It would be handier than the Super Redhawk I already have but would be a good compliment to it. 100 yard shots on larger game such as hogs and deer would also be an option with just a ammunition load change. I already have dies for the 44 Mag, cases, primers, powder and a pretty decent stash of ammo to boot.

CVA Apex/Stalker in 223. Most of what was said above can be said here. Why 223? I have been shooting significantly down loaded 223 ammo in my 24 inch barreled bolt action. Been getting about 1200 fps with a 55 gr bullet over a modest load of Blue Dot. Majorly worried about one not making it out of the long 24 inch barrel and it's a pain in the butt to verify the bores clear after every shot. The CVA's barrel is much shorter making that less likely and being a beak action a hell of a lot easier to check and verify I have a clear bore before shooting again. The upside to this one is that I already have a Bolt Action for serious work and a AR in this caliber. I have a ton of ammunition stashed away. I have a 55 gallon barrel of once fired brass at my disposal to reload and a deep stash of components. Dont really need another 223 though, but the thought has crossed my mind given the options it would provide.

Another alternative I have considered is the Ruger new model Blackhawk Convertible in 9mm/38/357! That's actually pretty appealing to me although it's a handgun and hitting beyond 25 yards gets a little tough. But again lets go back to the main reason for wanting it...small game at short ranges and plinking as the big two. It would be a little more suitable for that than the CVA in 44 Mag or the Super Redhawk in 44 Mag. Yet it's still adequate enough despite being a single action to use for defense or short range Deer or Hog hunting in a pinch, just by no means my first choice given my extensive gun collection. I haven't had a 357 in years since my place was broken into and my 3 screw Ruger stolen by the punks next door who were never prosecuted despite being minors and leaving a hand print behind. So I still have a little ammo left over, reloading dies and components although not much brass. But since it can also fire the 9mm that leaves a little more flexibility and I have enough empty cases and components, not to mention a sizable stash of ammo, to support a small insurgency if the LA Riots come to my neighborhood. Whipping up some cat sneeze loads in a six inch barreled gun would be a Sunday afternoon in the park and very economical to boot.

I guess the last option I got that has a leg to stand on is getting a Rossi matched pair in 22 LR and 410. Unlike the Ruger 10/22 it will give me a more accurate solution in 22 that will digest any 22 load short of the mags and until the 22 rim fire situation corrects itself and catches up to market demand, suck it up and use the 410 for the time being. I could use a truck gun and this could indeed fill that role like a champ I guess. Of course the price is right as its pretty budgetly priced! While I dont have a 410 or the ability to reload it, maybe I should as it would compliment the numerous 12 guages I already have and be better suited to small game such as Squirrel and Rabbits and pest control around the homestead.

So given that I am a bit of a prepper, own a shit load of guns already and need another one about like I need a bullet in the head, have a bit of a weak spot in my collection and given all of the considerations at hand above, and looking for a long term sustainable solution, what do you think makes the most sense to choose and why? Is there another option that I am over looking as a possible solution? I would be open to other ideas although I think the ones I have listed make the most sense.

Honestly it seems like you're talking about 2 different things to me. If a handgun is what you're looking for that Blackhawk convertible would be just the ticket for you. Add a casting pot and a mold along with some scrap lead and you're all set as long as you already own the reloading equipment. You'll be able to shoot that almost as cheap as a rimfire. Not to mention the fact that a light .38 Special load is a perfectly capable small game getter as long as the shooter is up to it. I bought a Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt/.45 ACP and it's quickly becoming my favorite handgun.

The .22/.410 combo would be a great choice for a small game gun giving you the option to select between cartridges depending on the situation. I have no experience with the Rossi guns though so I can't recommend them. What I would suggest though instead of a switch barrel combo would be to look for an older Savage Model 24 or the newer version the Model 42. I suggest the 24 over the 42 due to the fact that the newer gun is a little too strange looking to me, essentially they do the same thing though. The Savage guns will allow you to have both cartridges ready to go whenever you are afield with it and allow you to select which one you use on the fly. Hunting squirrels with the .22 and get a shot at a flushing bird, no problem meat is on the table. That .410 works great for those squirrels that won't stand still too. I also like the .410 for squirrels in trees because I hate the idea of launching a .22 bullet up into the air, squirrels on the ground get the .22.

-Infidel

[Imaexpat2]

Honestly it seems like you're talking about 2 different things to me. If a handgun is what you're looking for that Blackhawk convertible would be just the ticket for you. Add a casting pot and a mold along with some scrap lead and you're all set as long as you already own the reloading equipment. You'll be able to shoot that almost as cheap as a rimfire. Not to mention the fact that a light .38 Special load is a perfectly capable small game getter as long as the shooter is up to it. I bought a Blackhawk convertible in .45 Colt/.45 ACP and it's quickly becoming my favorite handgun.

The .22/.410 combo would be a great choice for a small game gun giving you the option to select between cartridges depending on the situation. I have no experience with the Rossi guns though so I can't recommend them. What I would suggest though instead of a switch barrel combo would be to look for an older Savage Model 24 or the newer version the Model 42. I suggest the 24 over the 42 due to the fact that the newer gun is a little too strange looking to me, essentially they do the same thing though. The Savage guns will allow you to have both cartridges ready to go whenever you are afield with it and allow you to select which one you use on the fly. Hunting squirrels with the .22 and get a shot at a flushing bird, no problem meat is on the table. That .410 works great for those squirrels that won't stand still too. I also like the .410 for squirrels in trees because I hate the idea of launching a .22 bullet up into the air, squirrels on the ground get the .22.

-Infidel

Actually I looked at the Savage 42. Its a bit "eccentric" but not so much so I couldn't live with it. The real show stopper was when I looked at reviews it took a lot of heat for being very mediocre on accuracy for a 22 rim fire rifle at best. In fact my Ruger Single Six could probably turn in better accuracy despite a 6 inch barrel and being hand held vs shoulder mounted from some of the reviews I read. For almost 400 bucks, I have a little bit higher expectation than that, but maybe I am asking too much.

I can go with a long gun but I think I could make a hand gun work just as well really. Surely I can stalk to with in 25 yards of a Bunny or Tree Rat. If not I am probably gonna starve regardless of what sort of gun I am using, right? Just weighing all the options out there to get the job done. It would certainly take a lot less space in the gun cabinets. It would also be pretty dang handy and CONCEALABLE, unlike a long gun that's really kind of hard to hide under your jacket...some times its nice to be able to fly under the radar if you need to. Your right about it being super cheap to shoot since I reload...all I need is the bullets and the cases, already have the primers and powder galore as well as the dies. 9mm/38/357 is pretty common as "range pick up" brass making a lot of the brass free...and you know me if its free, its for ME! I am kind of a tightwad like that, lol.

I was using my Ruger Single Six to fill this role in my collection. But when you look at the severity of the shortage of 22 rim fire during the last two shortages alone and you look at just how expensive its gotten to be for 22 rim fire in the last 4 years you have to wonder if its not maybe time to think about replacing it with something that's center fire and reloadable. Its not nearly as economical nor as plentiful as it once was. We are 20 months into this shortage and everything has came back in good supply but 22 rim fire and at 10 cents a round before I pay for shipping and hazmat fees on a good day when you can find it, not very economical.

[Infidel]

Actually I looked at the Savage 42. Its a bit "eccentric" but not so much so I couldn't live with it. The real show stopper was when I looked at reviews it took a lot of heat for being very mediocre on accuracy for a 22 rim fire rifle at best. In fact my Ruger Single Six could probably turn in better accuracy despite a 6 inch barrel and being hand held vs shoulder mounted from some of the reviews I read. For almost 400 bucks, I have a little bit higher expectation than that, but maybe I am asking too much.

I can go with a long gun but I think I could make a hand gun work just as well really. Surely I can stalk to with in 25 yards of a Bunny or Tree Rat. If not I am probably gonna starve regardless of what sort of gun I am using, right? Just weighing all the options out there to get the job done. It would certainly take a lot less space in the gun cabinets. It would also be pretty dang handy and CONCEALABLE, unlike a long gun that's really kind of hard to hide under your jacket...some times its nice to be able to fly under the radar if you need to. Your right about it being super cheap to shoot since I reload...all I need is the bullets and the cases, already have the primers and powder galore as well as the dies. 9mm/38/357 is pretty common as "range pick up" brass making a lot of the brass free...and you know me if its free, its for ME! I am kind of a tightwad like that, lol.

I was using my Ruger Single Six to fill this role in my collection. But when you look at the severity of the shortage of 22 rim fire during the last two shortages alone and you look at just how expensive its gotten to be for 22 rim fire in the last 4 years you have to wonder if its not maybe time to think about replacing it with something that's center fire and reloadable. Its not nearly as economical nor as plentiful as it once was. We are 20 months into this shortage and everything has came back in good supply but 22 rim fire and at 10 cents a round before I pay for shipping and hazmat fees on a good day when you can find it, not very economical.
I would take a look around for a deal on a Savage Model 24, mine is about as accurate as I can reasonably expect an iron sight .22lr to be and it sure looks a whole lot nicer than that 42. They can also be had in .22WMR or .223 Rem chambering over the shotgun barrel, I think both of those chamberings are over 20ga barrels though.

I think you're on to something with that convertible for sure, plenty of utility and cheap to load, especially if you start casting your own bullets (that will save a small fortune if you have access to lead). If you're comfortable shooting small game with it that's probably the way I'd go personally.

-Infidel

[Imaexpat2]

Id hands down go with the handgun if getting lead was a little easier. But since they are now making wheel weights with Zinc now and one of those in your pot will jack up a batch of melted lead, makes me a bit hesitant. I can get lead from the scrap yard but by the time I go to the trouble of melting it down I might not be that far away in cost, just buying bullets in bulk. Im no marksmen with a handgun but I aint no chump either, just not likely to win a Camp Perry Bullseye competition anytime soon. Im MOB (minute of beer can) out to 25 yards all day long though. Ill have to sit down and really crunch the numbers on this. Luckily I aint in no big hurry to solve this dilema, just thinking long and hard about it.

Your thread and one from someone that replied to yours and then the thread I saw titled something to the effect of "Is it time to replace the rim fire with a center fire..." has really got me thinking hard on this!!!

[Imaexpat2]

Hum, did some looking around at Academy since it was close by and still open and I didn't have anything better to do.

They had a 22/410 by Rossi 2 barrel set for 139.99. No bad but I would rather spend a little more and spring for the Nickel Nitride version if I go this route. Unfortunately it was also a Youth Model and way to short on length of pull. Not bad though for that price I think.

They had a 22/20 gauge Rossi two barrel set for 169.99. It was on a full sized stock and had a modified fixed choke and seems decent enough. I think I like the idea of the 22/20 gauge over the 22/410 for the lower cost to feed and wider range of available loads readily available even at walmart!

They also had a nice CVA Stalker on hand too. I think it was 189.99. Don't really need another gun in 223 since I have several but as I eluded to, one in a break action might make some sense here in this situation. Its just probably not gonna be my first choice given all of the options I have kind of laid out for consideration.

On another note they had a pretty good stash of 22 rim fire Blazer ammo at that for 2.69 a box which is about as cheap as I have seen it. Unfortunately there is a two box per a day per a customer limit in effect. Maybe there is hope after all that 22 rim fire ammo returning back to the market in good supply may be closer around the corner than I have been thinking.

[Infidel]

At $2.69 a box I'd be in there every day with my wife until it was gone. Gander Mtn here hasn't jacked their prices up on .22lr but they very rarely have it. Saturday mornings when they first open is the best time to try for it. I was scoring 1 550rd box per month for a little while, then it seemed to dry up again. Might just be my schedule who knows, 2 weekends off every 6 weeks doesn't lend itself to ammo shopping on Saturdays.

-Infidel

[Just Sayin']

Here's my suggestion.

A Savage 24F .22 over 20 ga. It's my meat gun, I can use it for anything that roams the woods here in Miss.

646

[Imaexpat2]

Like the Model 99 in 308, the 24 is another blast from the past I would like to see them make again!

[Imaexpat2]

At $2.69 a box I'd be in there every day with my wife until it was gone. Gander Mtn here hasn't jacked their prices up on .22lr but they very rarely have it. Saturday mornings when they first open is the best time to try for it. I was scoring 1 550rd box per month for a little while, then it seemed to dry up again. Might just be my schedule who knows, 2 weekends off every 6 weeks doesn't lend itself to ammo shopping on Saturdays.

-Infidel

They had enough to fill a 12 gallon plastic tote of just the blazer. They had almost that much of another brand I have never herd of before for 2.99. They had 100 round boxes of CCI for about 8 something a box too. Lots of Shorts, match and sub sonic ammo was there as well. Just no bulk backs of anything for any price.

[Montana Rancher]

Here's my suggestion.

A Savage 24F .22 over 20 ga. It's my meat gun, I can use it for anything that roams the woods here in Miss.

646

I agree with this post, if your question is for a "meat" gun the .20 gage is not only cheaper to shoot (trust me factory ammo is cheaper for a .20 than a .410)

The 20 also gives you the option to upgrade to a slug and take deer!

Just Sayin has it spot on!