Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 11 to 20 of 36

Thread: How to train an effective dog (Part 1)

  1. #11
    Occasionally Replies Back Smokin04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    136

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 164 Times in 78 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Slippy View Post
    Excellent Smokin!

    Mrs Slippy and I have a question. Many of you know that we recently got our newest dog, Beasley an Australian Cattle Dog who is now about 8 months old. We also have a 13 year old Border Collie, Millie. Millie HATES Beasley. I'm talking absolute hate. We also have a 6 year old Yorkshire Terrier, Tucker, who is a non-issue. Everyone gets along with Tucker, except Cam19 but that's another story.

    Millie was one of the best trained, most obedient animals ever. Now she's old and her hips are bad so she lays around most days and constantly lets out a string of high pitched barks about 5 minutes apart. Millie also has developed cataracts and is showing signs of hearing loss. When she was young, exercise would cure her of any ill behavior but now she is only good for about 10 minutes of walking or playing ball a day. I fear that she is not long for this world.

    She just lays in her bed in the laundry room and growls at Beasley if Beasley comes near the laundry room, then starts on the string of high pitched barks. She was not like this until we bought Beasley.

    We've tried her old correction collar and it works for a while. We don't want to keep the correction collar on her all day but will if we cannot reverse this. My feeling is that she is protecting her food, the laundry room is where we feed the dogs usually. We've moved her bed into other rooms, where she used to lay around but she always goes back to the laundry room. I also think her hearing loss is part of this but we don't know what to do about the irritating barking. Very sad to see the old girl be like this especially since she was an absolute joy to train in her early days.

    Any suggestions?
    Well I understand Millie's POV. She's old and hurting, and now a young pup is full of energy and around her constantly. To an elderly dog, this is like your wife opening up a day care center for 5-7 year olds when she's 92. That can lead people to become crotchety. I honestly do not expect Millie to change her behavior because she has always been the alpha in her pack. Her barking is likely a reminder that she is not to be challenged by the younger puppy, and that she's still around...but I would honestly have to see their interaction to identify the exact issue. I can only guess unfortunately.

    Are you leaving food down? If so, that could be a problem. She will feel that she needs to protect her food by "standing guard" over it. If you only leave the food down for 20-30 minutes (long enough for them to eat) than Millie might lose the need to "guard" the food, and rejoin the family.
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

    "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all"- Gen. James Mattis (Forcefully retired by Obama)

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Smokin04 For This Useful Post:

    1moretoy (08-01-2014),Slippy (08-01-2014)

  3. #12
    Anti-social Behavior Slippy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Wherever won't get me hit!
    Posts
    7,903

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    28,344
    Thanked 24,848 Times in 6,976 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin04 View Post
    Well I understand Millie's POV. She's old and hurting, and now a young pup is full of energy and around her constantly. To an elderly dog, this is like your wife opening up a day care center for 5-7 year olds when she's 92. That can lead people to become crotchety. I honestly do not expect Millie to change her behavior because she has always been the alpha in her pack. Her barking is likely a reminder that she is not to be challenged by the younger puppy, and that she's still around...but I would honestly have to see their interaction to identify the exact issue. I can only guess unfortunately.

    Are you leaving food down? If so, that could be a problem. She will feel that she needs to protect her food by "standing guard" over it. If you only leave the food down for 20-30 minutes (long enough for them to eat) than Millie might lose the need to "guard" the food, and rejoin the family.
    Smokin,
    I appreciate your response and we felt the same but weren't sure. We never leave food down, they eat and then the bowls and food go back in storage. But since the new puppy, we have a table in the laundry room that holds training treats etc. The laundry room (or curled up next to the toilet) has also been her "safe spot" and I suspect that since she is hurting she goes to her safe spot that is the crux of the problem.
    Thanks and I really like your thread. (Between me and you, Mrs Slippy could stand to read some of this! We call her the Dog De-Trainer!

  4. #13
    Dinky Dau Just Sayin''s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    557
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 408 Times in 220 Posts
    RWalls,

    I think that this kind of thread is one that should deserve an instant ranks boost, or at least a promotion for the OP. From reading the replies, I don't think you would find any dissenters, even AI might agree with me here! LOL

    How 'bout it? Might encourage some others to share some highly valuable information here.

    Attaboy Smokin'
    "Free men do not ask permission to bear arms"

    Thomas Jefferson

    Seen on Bumper Sticker:

    I may be an old dog
    But I can still bury a bone

  5. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Just Sayin' For This Useful Post:

    Innkeeper (08-05-2014),Slippy (08-01-2014)

  6. #14
    Occasionally Replies Back Smokin04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    136

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 164 Times in 78 Posts
    Thanks Just Sayin'...I haven't even got into the good shit yet...
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

    "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all"- Gen. James Mattis (Forcefully retired by Obama)

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Smokin04 For This Useful Post:

    Inor (08-02-2014),Slippy (08-01-2014)

  8. #15
    Little Miss Chatterbox 1moretoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Middle GA
    Posts
    1,260

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    225
    Thanked 559 Times in 359 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Sayin' View Post
    RWalls,

    I think that this kind of thread is one that should deserve an instant ranks boost, or at least a promotion for the OP. From reading the replies, I don't think you would find any dissenters, even AI might agree with me here! LOL

    How 'bout it? Might encourage some others to share some highly valuable information here.


    Attaboy Smokin'
    Everyone go to the "rate this thread" button at the top of the page and cast your vote for the thread.

    Smokin04 now has a medal now too!
    Last edited by 1moretoy; 08-01-2014 at 08:09 PM.

  9. #16
    Dinky Dau Just Sayin''s Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Mississippi
    Posts
    557
    Thanks
    232
    Thanked 408 Times in 220 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin04 View Post
    Thanks Just Sayin'...I haven't even got into the good shit yet...
    You're welcome Smokin... Now you've got a reputation to uphold!
    "Free men do not ask permission to bear arms"

    Thomas Jefferson

    Seen on Bumper Sticker:

    I may be an old dog
    But I can still bury a bone

  10. #17
    Occasionally Replies Back Smokin04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    136

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 164 Times in 78 Posts
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

    "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all"- Gen. James Mattis (Forcefully retired by Obama)

  11. #18
    Anti-social Behavior Slippy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Wherever won't get me hit!
    Posts
    7,903

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    28,344
    Thanked 24,848 Times in 6,976 Posts
    Quote Originally Posted by Smokin04 View Post
    Update on Millie;
    Smokin';
    Your post reminded me of using her favorite thing EVER and that is her ball. So when she started her irritating series of barks today, I gave her one of her "love it more than life itself" tennis balls and Wah Lah. Instant happiness and no more barks!

    It was funny, when she was younger and active we had to make up a "Cease" command to let her know that it was time to stop playing ball (which was her "job"). Border Collies are a bit obsessive anyway so after playing ball, we would give her "cease" command and she would give us back the ball and relax. Otherwise she would bug the shit out of us to play and the "cease" command worked. We also found out that if we just stopped playing with her and allowed her to keep her ball, she would obsess over the ball and end up chewing it into tiny pieces then scatter them around the house.

    So we just took her ball away after giving the "cease " command.

    Now since she's older and can't play very long and doesn't have the desire to chew things up, she seems content just having her ball by her side! Maybe this will work!

    Thanks again!Attachment 655

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to Slippy For This Useful Post:

    Smokin04 (08-02-2014)

  13. #19
    Occasionally Replies Back Smokin04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    136

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 164 Times in 78 Posts
    Let's hope Slippy...beautiful dog!
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

    "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all"- Gen. James Mattis (Forcefully retired by Obama)

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Smokin04 For This Useful Post:

    Slippy (08-02-2014)

  15. #20
    Occasionally Replies Back Smokin04's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    136

    Ranks Showcase

    Thanks
    14
    Thanked 164 Times in 78 Posts
    Hopefully you all did your homework on “drive”. As we progress, I will reference various drives that we are influencing or affecting. I will assume that you did the homework and understand what I’m discussing.

    Before we get to teaching our dogs stuff,

    We must first start with proper gear selection.


    There are several pieces to choose from, all with different functions. How do you select the right gear? You must first decide what kind of training you’re going to be conducting. Inducive techniques will focus on usage of basic collars, leashes, harnesses, toys and treats. Remember HOI earlier? Pick/purchase the toys or treats that Fido loves. Always have more than one in case it gets lost, broken, chewed up, consumed, etc. A good way to tell which treats your dog prefers is to buy 3 or 4 different kinds (in small quantity, no need to spend a fortune) and let the dog sample each one. Then close your fist around 2 treats a time and take note of which fist the dog favors. Of the 2, they prefer that one. Disregard the other. Repeat this process with the remaining treats until a clear victor emerges. You can use this technique with toys too. Now you know Fido’s favorite thing. (PERSONAL INPUT: If you must use food, never underestimate small pieces of regular old hot dogs as treats. Most dogs go bonkers over hot dogs and we use them to teach sniffing behavior.)

    Compulsion and aggression training requires a different set of gear. Choke chains, pinch collars, E-collars, harnesses, muzzles, bite muzzles, bite sleeves, hidden sleeves, bite jackets, bite suits, scratch pants, whips, back ties, bungee back ties, long leads, etc. Notice this list is far more in depth than the inducive one. If you ever plan on training your dogs for personal protection or attack work of any kind, you MUST HAVE this gear! If you don’t, you will likely not be able to effectively train your dog. (If you can without this gear, please call me because we can open a business LOL!) I would consider the BARE MINIMUM for attack work gear would be: 6’ leash, 30’ leash, choke chain, leather collar, soft bite sleeve, scratch pants, and a whip or agitation stick. You might be able to get the job done without scratch pants, but damn you’re going to be in for some long and painful days. As we get into the protection stuff later, you will hear me reference these tools. Please keep them in the back of your mind as we will get to them eventually.

    One piece of gear I really despise is the pinch collar. So many people buy them because they make their dog look mean. This is such a terrible thought process. Pinch collars should be used ONLY when a dog’s titration level is beyond the level that choke chains are effective.

    Whoa, whoa, what’s a titration level Smokin?

    Put simply, it’s a dog’s tolerance for pain. When you administer a choke collar correction, and the dog doesn’t even flinch, they have a higher titration level. If you barely pop the dog on the collar and they practically roll over and die, pee on themselves or cry out in agony, then your dog has a lower titration level. Make sense? In a decade of handling/training with hundreds of mean, nasty 100+ pound shepherds and mals (affectionately called “ass-eaters”), I’ve only seen 2 dogs that ACTUALLY required a pinch collar. And that’s usually because the handler couldn’t dish out an effective choke collar correction. A choke chain works like its name implies. Apply pressure, it temporarily interrupts blood flow to the brain (hard continuous pressure) and also restricts the airway in the throat and “chokes” the dog. A pinch (also called a “prong”) collar is worn like a choke chain, except it doesn’t “choke” the dog. It uses the prongs to pull sections of skin together and “pinch” the skin/scruff of the neck. Have you ever pinched your skin in a door, or when using a tool or something? It’s painful to say the least. If hard pressure is applied, these prongs can actually dig into the muscles in the neck and “pinch” them. This can be very dangerous as you can cause damage to muscle tissue if abused. See why I despise them? Most handlers don’t have the required leash skill to “pop a dog on a pinch.” They cause the dog immense pain, thus, I don’t like them…but I know they do have their place. Please contact me if you suspect your dog will need a pinch collar.

    Cool Smokin, so I bought my gear. Now tell me how to use this stuff will ya?


    Sure thing. Basic collars, leashes, and harnesses are pretty self-explanatory. If you can’t figure those out, please stop reading and release your dog into the wild, they’ll be better off. Moving on. One piece of gear constantly put on wrong is a choke chain. This is bad for Fido because you can really mess him up when you do this wrong. The CORRECT way to install a choke chain is to put the dog on your left side (a.k.a “Heel” position). The choke chain should for a “P” as you’re looking at it. If it’s forming a “Q” it’s on backwards and will not release properly when correcting. (See pictures below) You can also use a "cheater ring" to keep the choke chain in the correct placement on the dog's head. These are awesome for big headed dogs with little necks (like pit bulls). Their use ensures effective corrections everytime as they do not allow the choke chain to fall down, or "sag".

    "P" correct
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mms_picture (2).jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	81.0 KB 
ID:	670

    "Q" incorrect
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mms_picture_2 (3).jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	73.5 KB 
ID:	671

    Correct worn
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mms_picture_3 (2).jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	68.6 KB 
ID:	672

    Incorrectly worn
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	mms_picture_4.jpg 
Views:	14 
Size:	18.6 KB 
ID:	673

    Seen here with a "Cheater Ring"
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	cheater ring.jpg 
Views:	2 
Size:	87.4 KB 
ID:	674


    (SIDE NOTE: Big thanks to my model Dade. Dade is my 9 year old belgian malanois. You may have noticed, I do not have a basic/leather collar on my dogs. This is because they are very advanced dogs. They are in the maintenance phase of training only only require verbal instructions to comply. So, for me, it's un-needed gear.)

    How many of you just looked at your dog and noticed you had it on wrong? Poor dog, shame on you mommy/daddy. It’s okay…you didn’t know. That’s why you’re reading this. The choke chain should go ABOVE the leather collar (or basic collar). The higher the choke chain (closer to the ears) the more effective the correction and less force is needed by the handler to apply a solid correction. The two rings are called the “active” ring, and the “dead” ring. The active ring is the one that will activate the choke chain when pressure is applied. The dead ring is called the dead ring because when pressure is applied, it does not choke the dog. The active ring should be used when training, but when your session is done ensure that you put your leash back on the dead ring. No sense in continuing to choke Fido is you’re not telling him to do anything. I know what you’re thinking, what’s the basic collar on there for then? We don’t use it when training right? Wrong! The basic (leather) collar is there for more of a psychological effect and comes into play when doing aggression training. It gives the handler another form of control when trying to get the dog to release the decoy. More on that later. When you’re walking with your dog, the leash should be connected to the basic collar AND the active ring on the choke. Then when it’s time to train, you click the leash onto ONLY the active ring. This effectively puts the dog into “work” mode. It’s like an “On” switch. When training is over, by clicking the leash back up to the collar and the choke, it tells the dog, “You can relax now.” It is also a fail-safe, because if your basic collar breaks for some reason, the choke becomes “active” and gets Fido’s attention. Make sense?

    But what if I use a harness?

    Harnesses are great, and they have their place. But to put your dog in a harness just because they pull on walks is not the right answer. Harnesses are used for patrolling (long walks) when the dog is “on point” and actively searching, or when you’re doing drive building, bite building, or commitment issue type training. The harness is effective when Fido really wants that decoy, and your holding him back (kind of like when a track runner uses a parachute to increase drag) to intensify his drive, without applying pressure to the neck. Using a collar for drive building can be counter-productive in training because even though you’re not actively choking the dog, the pressure they are exerting to forward motion will manifest in the dogs neck. Try this, push in on your throat with the palm of your hand and try to move your head forward while breathing heavy. Notice the feeling of labored breathing and discomfort? Multiply that feeling by 10 for Fido because he’s running and trying to reach a point. Now, apply that same picture to a back pack. Put on a back pack, and have someone hold it from behind. Now you run…You can drag the person holding it, and while yes it’s more difficult to move than if no one was holding it, it doesn’t cause you pain or decrease your motivation to continue running. Well not to the dog anyway. I consider a harness an advanced piece of gear used by serious handlers and trainers. It can build drive to incredible levels when used correctly, and conversely have detrimental effects when used incorrectly. You can NEVER physically correct a dog when attached to a harness. Thus, the collar/choke chain combo and YOUR VOICE are still the only way to physically/verbally correct your dog effectively.

    Feel free to ask questions. I’ll write more this weekend…
    Only the dead have seen the end of war. - Plato

    "I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all"- Gen. James Mattis (Forcefully retired by Obama)

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Smokin04 For This Useful Post:

    Innkeeper (08-05-2014)

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •