Debt's VS Trespasses: How do you pray???

[Dwight55]

The Lord's prayer is often said two ways, . . .

Only one is correct.

May God bless,
Dwight

https://youtu.be/-sH3YD3SaFE

[Inor]

Debt and debtors. There is no other that is factually correct.

[Walter Tyler]

Huh... never heard it with Debts n Debtors.

I am not a religious sort...
I always thought of the Lords Prayer as the new covenant iteration of Moses' "TOP 10" rules/ideas for a successful peaceful society.

AND Dwight55 "only ONE way is correct" is not very understanding of the REASON for prayer... unless I misunderstand your statement.
It reads as if you are stating that the only correct way to pray is the manner and words that YOU use to pray.
ONLY GOD knows what is in mans heart. An Omniscient Being has no need for dogma n ritual... its the THOUGHT that counts.

[Dwight55]

Huh... never heard it with Debts n Debtors.

I am not a religious sort...
I always thought of the Lords Prayer as the new covenant iteration of Moses' "TOP 10" rules/ideas for a successful peaceful society.

AND Dwight55 "only ONE way is correct" is not very understanding of the REASON for prayer... unless I misunderstand your statement.
It reads as if you are stating that the only correct way to pray is the manner and words that YOU use to pray.
ONLY GOD knows what is in mans heart. An Omniscient Being has no need for dogma n ritual... its the THOUGHT that counts.

Not meaning to be caustic in my reply, . . . but you obviously did not watch the video.

The clliff notes version is all about the politically correct speech that changed the meaning of THIS PARTICULAR prayer, . . . hence the theology behind it, . . . hundreds of years ago, . . . and not only with little consequences, . . . but with sheeple approval to this day.

Jesus did say, . . . After this manner therefore pray ye (Matthew 6:9).

Seeing as how He IS the Son of God, . . . I kind of took it as a given that the instructions given there were pretty inclusive, . . . not subject to CNN re-interpretation, . . . and He expects those who wish to be considered "obedient" to do as He said.

The differences between "Debts" and "Trespasses" is similar to the difference between "queer as a 3 dollar bill" , . . . and "slightly gay leaning". One is an absolute statement, . . . the other is politically correct speech of the day.

I prefer straight up speech, . . . teach that God does as well, . . . and that is more or less the crux of the message.

But thanks for the thoughts.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Walter Tyler]

I did not watch the Video.

I to prefer "straight up speech". I also enjoy constructive dialog. Perhaps you could take a little time and explain to me a little more in depth the intended consequences of the "change" from Debts to Trespasses.
A debt is something owed, presumably owed in FACT. There are many ways to be in debt.
A Trespass is a perceived wrong. Something DEBATABLE. A construction of thought.
I am not a theologian, but I think some problems arise from folks disagreeing over "babble" when the text disagreed over is a translation of a translation of a long "dead" / unspoken language.
The passage we are talking about is about FORGIVENESS and being FORGIVEN... I believe THAT to be the crux of the matter.

I am not quite "getting" your thought line of how Debt applies to Homosexuality...
Are you implying that Debts and Debtors is in a literal sense? If someone mows my lawn for me am I now in DEBT to them, even though there was never a "meeting of the minds" of them mowing my lawn for me?

As always with much Respect,
Walter Tyler

[Mister Mills]

"Forgive our debts, as we forgive our debtors." That is how I pray it. And either version pertains to wrongs done by the prayee; to anyone, either here in this World or to God Himself.
In a way it is an admission that we have done wrong, consciously or unconsciously. In another way, it empathizes that we are weak and fallible, and we depend on God to see us through life.
Debts and trespasses are interchangeable notions, either it is an something owed or a thing done against someone.

[Walter Tyler]

An interesting article...

Though by posting this I MAY be missing Dwight55's original point... MAY...

https://garynealhansen.com/okay-why-trespasses-debts-and-sins-heidelberg-catechism-q119/


So, correct me if I’m wrong, but it appears English liturgical use of the Lord’s Prayer works out like this:

If your church prays about “debts” and “debtors” they simply follow Matthew’s version of the Lord’s Prayer.

If your church prays about “trespasses” they follow Matthew’s framework for the prayer, with a term based on that used by Luke for our transgressions against God, apparently using the same term for symmetry regarding our transgressions against each other.

If your church prays about “sins” they follow Matthew’s framework for the prayer, with Luke’s explicit term for our transgressions against God, apparently using the same term for symmetry regarding our transgressions against each other.

So... If NOTHING else, I learned something new today... Thanks to Dwight55.

[Dwight55]

An interesting article...

Though by posting this I MAY be missing Dwight55's original point... MAY...

So... If NOTHING else, I learned something new today... Thanks to Dwight55.

Tyndale is often "blamed" for the change from debts to trespasses, . . . but the Anglican church and the Catholic church are targets as well.

True, . . . both are "wrongs" committed by A against B.

Trespasses sometimes do not leave footprints, . . . or as the sun comes out, . . . the snow is melted and the evidence is gone. In other words, the "trespass" can be like so many CNN sources today, . . . "un-named" or "anonymous". There is a wrong, . . . the person knows he/she was wronged, . . . but there is no culprit, . . . and by continuing in the line of thinking that these types of wrongs are OK, . . . we fall into allowing the vocabulary to change the severity of the wound.

OTOH, . . . a debt has both a debtor and a creditor, . . . each knows the part they have played in the exercise, . . . each knows who the other party is, . . . each knows the level of debt that was incurred (although a 50K$ debt is much less in the eyes of Rockefeller than the eyes of a homeless veteran sleeping on the streets), . . . and each knows and understands that there is an "overseer" approving or allowing this debt.

The overseer is left out of the equation in the trespass, . . . but is a full visitor to the debt.

The teaching that it is more proper to pray debts, . . . includes the overseer (Jesus Christ), . . . who when the debt is closed (restitution / repentance / etc), . . . the debtor and creditor fold up their copies and will always recall the debt, . . . thought it may not make any future difference, . . . it is still recalled, . . . but the copy originally handled by the overseer is forever, totally, and beyond recall, . . . destroyed.

___________

The whole concept is that of making light or at least "less" of sin, . . . by giving it a different name and different connotation. That was the point I tried to make earlier with the terms "queer" and " gay". One who is called out for being queer will be forced to defend their lifestyle, . . . whereas being gay is more an accepted term for "acceptable homosexuality".

That is a similar analogy of debt and trespasses.

Does the Lord make a difference if our thoughts are correct??? Of course not, . . . and you rightly brought up that point. But to promote or allow the changing of the terms, . . . vocabulary, . . . wording, . . . promotes a different understanding of the "question".

Eternity cannot afford for folks to have a lackadaisical attitude towards sin and repentance, . . . and there are many of us who see that attitude in the difference between trespasses and debts.

May God bless,
Dwight

[Inor]

Tyndale is often "blamed" for the change from debts to trespasses, . . . but the Anglican church and the Catholic church are targets as well.

True, . . . both are "wrongs" committed by A against B.

Trespasses sometimes do not leave footprints, . . . or as the sun comes out, . . . the snow is melted and the evidence is gone. In other words, the "trespass" can be like so many CNN sources today, . . . "un-named" or "anonymous". There is a wrong, . . . the person knows he/she was wronged, . . . but there is no culprit, . . . and by continuing in the line of thinking that these types of wrongs are OK, . . . we fall into allowing the vocabulary to change the severity of the wound.

OTOH, . . . a debt has both a debtor and a creditor, . . . each knows the part they have played in the exercise, . . . each knows who the other party is, . . . each knows the level of debt that was incurred (although a 50K$ debt is much less in the eyes of Rockefeller than the eyes of a homeless veteran sleeping on the streets), . . . and each knows and understands that there is an "overseer" approving or allowing this debt.

The overseer is left out of the equation in the trespass, . . . but is a full visitor to the debt.

The teaching that it is more proper to pray debts, . . . includes the overseer (Jesus Christ), . . . who when the debt is closed (restitution / repentance / etc), . . . the debtor and creditor fold up their copies and will always recall the debt, . . . thought it may not make any future difference, . . . it is still recalled, . . . but the copy originally handled by the overseer is forever, totally, and beyond recall, . . . destroyed.

___________

The whole concept is that of making light or at least "less" of sin, . . . by giving it a different name and different connotation. That was the point I tried to make earlier with the terms "queer" and " gay". One who is called out for being queer will be forced to defend their lifestyle, . . . whereas being gay is more an accepted term for "acceptable homosexuality".

That is a similar analogy of debt and trespasses.

Does the Lord make a difference if our thoughts are correct??? Of course not, . . . and you rightly brought up that point. But to promote or allow the changing of the terms, . . . vocabulary, . . . wording, . . . promotes a different understanding of the "question".

Eternity cannot afford for folks to have a lackadaisical attitude towards sin and repentance, . . . and there are many of us who see that attitude in the difference between trespasses and debts.

May God bless,
Dwight

More succinctly...

When you "trespass", you may or may not know you are taking advantage of somebody else. When we round up cattle for our friend Eve, we march our horses across all kinds of land that is not owned by Eve or me. We do not cause any kind of damage, but we are trespassing.

Taking on a debt, you know exactly what you are getting into and you know what the payback is before you ever take it on. From a Christian perspective, we are not "sinners" or "trespassers"; we are "debtors" (period, end of story). Bible tells us *EXACTLY* what is acceptable and unacceptable. When we knowingly sin, we are debtors. That is why I refuse to kneel in church when we ask forgiveness of sins. If I was bold enough to do whatever I did to require forgiveness, then I need to be tough enough to take a shot in the ass with a lightning bolt when I fall short.